Jump to content


Important Announcement!

Guest or regular Member, and can't post? You need to read the FAQ to see how:
http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/2209-faq/
Thank you!

Photo
- - - - -

Best sugar for Rocket?


  • Please log in to reply
26 replies to this topic

#1 bryann

bryann

    Smelt the smoke

  • Full Member
  • Pip
  • 8 posts

Posted 05 January 2012 - 10:43 PM

Hi guys, does any of you use cheap bag of kane sugar and KNO3 for their rocket? If don't mind, please share what's the best kind of sugar best use for small rocket engine. Thanks.

#2 dagabu

dagabu

    Grandmaster

  • Donator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,840 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Up Nort

Posted 06 January 2012 - 08:12 AM

Hi guys, does any of you use cheap bag of kane sugar and KNO3 for their rocket? If don't mind, please share what's the best kind of sugar best use for small rocket engine. Thanks.


I have used both granular and powdered Beet and Cane sugar with similar results in rockets but I have found that some powdered sugars contain other ingredients such as starches that tend to slow the burn.

Others have reported difficulty in getting granular sugar to melt adequately in a pan, I have had no such problem as I have made stock "simple syrup" in a 2:1 ratio of sugar to water for canning, drinks and such and use same for rocket fuel. I do the same with granulated KNO3 but it has to be kept hot or it will fall out of solution. At a rate of over 2 kilos per liter of water at 100°C, you can get a 2:1 ratio from this as well.

In practical terms, to make a 100g batch of sugar rocket fuel, you would pour 120g of the "K-syrup" along with 80g of "simple syrup" into an electric pan and heat to your desired color and temper. I add 2g of corn syrup to the batch before it starts to turn color if I am pressing it into casings or just use it 60:40 if I am going to grate it for pressing into casings as one would with BP.

-dag

Edited by dagabu, 06 January 2012 - 09:58 AM.


#3 bryann

bryann

    Smelt the smoke

  • Full Member
  • Pip
  • 8 posts

Posted 06 January 2012 - 11:13 PM

Was hoping to find a Thank button on the page, but couldn't find any. So THANK dagabu for your informative input.

#4 usapyro

usapyro

    Pyrotechnician

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 386 posts

Posted 06 January 2012 - 11:39 PM

Id suggest using Dan Pollino's fuel.

http://www.jacobsroc..._propellant.htm

"Dan Pollino and "Flexible" Sugar Propellant

Dan Pollino's "flexible" propellant is just a variation of Jimmy's propellant but he mixes it differently. Where Jimmy's formulas are a little fuel rich, Dan's "flexible" sugar propellant is a little oxidizer rich when you take into account the amount of water in Corn syrup. His formula is:

65% Potassium Nitrate

15% Sucrose (Powdered Sugar)

19% Corn Syrup

His mixing method is: First mix thoroughly the potassium nitrate (ground fine) and powdered sugar. Next, heat up the Corn Syrup to 180° F, then stir in the potassium nitrate and powdered sugar. Stir constantly. When the mix is at 210 degrees, it is ready for casting."


Pyro for life! > www.youtube.com/usapyro

I make my BP with Rhamnus Frangula Purshiana!!!

#5 TYRONEEZEKIEL

TYRONEEZEKIEL

    Pyrotechnician

  • HE Qualified
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 584 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dallas/Lubbock, TX
  • Interests:Pyro, Paintball, bowling.

Posted 07 January 2012 - 12:19 AM

As far as rocketry goes, all the rocket guys use sorbitol instead of powdered sugar or table sugar. with the ratio of 65:35 KNO3:Sorbitol.

Since sorbitol is a sugar alcohol it melts significantly easier and is much more workable IMO. The major drawback is availability. Standard sugar is significantly cheaper and more available.

If you are just looking for a very powerful rocket formula, try the flexible formula above. That is more or less what I use, however I think the corn syrup amount is too high. I usually cut it to 10% and fill it in with sugar. I have also been experimenting with honey instead of corn syrup. And I find that boiling all the water out makes a much stronger propellant.

If you do go with the boiling route, make sure you add enough water in the beginning to completely dissolve the powders, then gradually boil all the water off until you are left with a light colored peanut buttery mass. This will ensure the best possible mix of chems as well as increase safety by reducing flare ups.
Make fireworks, not war

#6 usapyro

usapyro

    Pyrotechnician

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 386 posts

Posted 07 January 2012 - 01:52 AM

Dude, I looked for sorbitol forever... Impossible to find, and when I did fine someone... It was being discontinued and they canceled my order out of stock! It's no longer used in food because of it's problems.
Pyro for life! > www.youtube.com/usapyro

I make my BP with Rhamnus Frangula Purshiana!!!

#7 THEONE

THEONE

    Pyrotechnician

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 350 posts

Posted 07 January 2012 - 02:39 AM

Use Dan Pollino's fuel, is east to work and easy to make, cheap, and you can find the chemicals everywhere, i use it and i make some big engines like J and K class

#8 usapyro

usapyro

    Pyrotechnician

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 386 posts

Posted 07 January 2012 - 02:42 AM

Yess... Thumbs up. :D Dan's fuel unlike other methods of making sugar fuel gives you the EXACT same results every time... It rules!!!

Use Dan Pollino's fuel, is east to work and easy to make, cheap, and you can find the chemicals everywhere, i use it and i make some big engines like J and K class


Pyro for life! > www.youtube.com/usapyro

I make my BP with Rhamnus Frangula Purshiana!!!

#9 dagabu

dagabu

    Grandmaster

  • Donator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,840 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Up Nort

Posted 07 January 2012 - 09:42 AM

Id suggest using Dan Pollino's fuel.

http://www.jacobsroc..._propellant.htm

"Dan Pollino and "Flexible" Sugar Propellant

Dan Pollino's "flexible" propellant is just a variation of Jimmy's propellant but he mixes it differently. Where Jimmy's formulas are a little fuel rich, Dan's "flexible" sugar propellant is a little oxidizer rich when you take into account the amount of water in Corn syrup. His formula is:

65% Potassium Nitrate

15% Sucrose (Powdered Sugar)

19% Corn Syrup

His mixing method is: First mix thoroughly the potassium nitrate (ground fine) and powdered sugar. Next, heat up the Corn Syrup to 180° F, then stir in the potassium nitrate and powdered sugar. Stir constantly. When the mix is at 210 degrees, it is ready for casting."



Yes, Dan's fuel stays workable longer but the use of more corn syrup and powdered sugar slow the burn and with an inhibited Bates grain, the burn should be more enthusiastic. I have not made a J-sized bates grain since 2006 and have no idea what Jimmy is doing with his sugar shot to the moon but as late as 2006, the use of sorbitol was limited to the HP rocketry snobs that were impossible to deal with as humans. That is the one hobby where there is more arrogance then a Doctors convention!

Us humans that wished to shoot a lawn-dart on a limited budget used sugar by C&H right from the bag.

Forgive my bitterness but HP rocketry left a very bad taste in my mouth....

-dag

#10 donperry

donperry

    Pyromaniac

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 149 posts

Posted 11 February 2012 - 10:58 AM

Forgive my bitterness but HP rocketry left a very bad taste in my mouth....

-dag


Hmmm. I've yet to experience that arrogance though. Maybe they have matured or were going through a phase in life :D

bryann, here is a good link to read http://www.jamesyawn...candy/index.htm and http://www.jacobsroc..._propellant.htm

My preference in fuels from most to the least are as follows:

1. recrystallized sugar (KN/Dextrose, 65:35) (Dextrose also known as glucose)
2. recrystallized sugar (KN/Sucrose/Dextrose) (65/20/15)
3. recrystallized (james yawn formula)
4. Melted method (KN/Dextrose)
5. Melted method (KN/SU/Dextrose)
6. Melted method (KN/SU/Karo)

But all the pros seem to use KN/sorbitol which I cannot afford.

the recrystallized methods gives the best burn as the fuel and oxidizer are more intimately bonded.
The melted method requires grinding the already powdered KNO3.
Melted method more suited to larger motors, I class and above.

I love pure dextrose comps, it's cheaper than sorbitol, available, does not ignite easily while preparing, flexible and less hygroscopic than any mix with Sucrose.

Edited by donperry, 11 February 2012 - 10:59 AM.


#11 gregkdc1

gregkdc1

    Playing with fire

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 48 posts

Posted 14 February 2012 - 04:30 PM

I also prefer re-crystallized dextrose, except I like to use a 60/40 ratio of Kn/Dextrose to make the propellant easier to work with. For the dextrose either buy it at a health food store or you can use straight corn syrup. The corn syrup I use is the "Garden Club" brand form the local grocery store. It may be hard to determine the exact amount of sugar in corn syrup but I came pretty close and it works just fine. What I did to determine the sugar content was first I measured a microwave safe pyrex dish. I then added some corn syrup and weighed the dish again so I knew how much syrup I had in the dish. I then micro waved the corn syrup just to the point that I noticed a slight change in color or carmalization. The idea being that you boil the water off until you start chemically splitting water from the sugar. I then weighed the dish with the cooked corn syrup and calculated the percentage of weight lost. It turned out that the corn syrup was about 79% sugar so I just rounded it up to 80% and this has worked great for me.
Also don't bother with using epoxy to bind the propellant to the inhibitors or motor tube like Jimmy does. Instead make a 50/50 solution of corn syrup to water and paint it on what ever surface you want the propellant to bond to. Next let the sugar solution dry, sometimes it is easiest to place the paper inhibitors in an oven at 150 for a few minutes, the hot propellant will bond with this sugar coating when it cools down. I will cook the propellant until it is ready to be formed into grains, I then push the propellant down into the prepared inhibitor and using an oiled aluminum knitting needle make the core while the propellant is still hot. Dextrose propellant does burn slower than sucrose but you can easily compensate for it with a smaller nozzle core. Also if you want to make a time delay bulk head with the propellant you need to add 1% iron oxide to keep the propellant lit as the chamber pressure drops after burn out. This the basics for my sugar motors I hope it helps.


#12 californiapyro

californiapyro

    Pyrotechnician

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 664 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:cali
  • Interests:metalwork, pyrotechnics, rocketry, tooling

Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:21 PM

I realize that "motor class" is in newtons and "pounds" is in tube size but is there some sort of approximate translation from, say, a 1 LB rocket to a E class motor?
www.fireworktools.com

Check it out! Quality tooling at an affordable price

#13 TYRONEEZEKIEL

TYRONEEZEKIEL

    Pyrotechnician

  • HE Qualified
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 584 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dallas/Lubbock, TX
  • Interests:Pyro, Paintball, bowling.

Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:04 PM

I realize that "motor class" is in newtons and "pounds" is in tube size but is there some sort of approximate translation from, say, a 1 LB rocket to a E class motor?


Im not really sure about how to go around that. I do know that Sugar Rocket fuel takes twice the amount of comp to produce the equivalent power to BP IIRC. Or it may be to APCP.

Its been a long while since I've worked with sugar rocket fuel. Any confirmation on this?
Make fireworks, not war

#14 dagabu

dagabu

    Grandmaster

  • Donator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,840 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Up Nort

Posted 15 February 2012 - 07:57 AM

Performance
Sugar based rocket propellants have an average Isp(specific impulse) of between 115 and 130 seconds. Compare that to the average Isp of an APCP (Ammonium perchlorate composite propellant), which is 150 to 180 seconds. Sorbitol and KNO3 based propellants with a typical 65:35 ratio are capable of a max thrust of up to 110 N, an Isp of between 110 and 125 seconds, and may have an average thrust of about 40 N. However, sorbitol and KNO3 rockets with additives have been recorded as having average thrusts of up to 100N, total impulses of up to 735 Ns, and specific impulses of up to 128 seconds.

Xylitol and KNO3 based rocket propellants are capable of a specific impulse of ~ 100 seconds and can have a total impulse of up to 230Ns These have a unconfined burn rate of about 1.3 mm/sec.

Dextrose and KNO3 based fuels are capable of an average thrust of ~80N, a total impulse of 144 Ns, and an Isp of 118 seconds.


Performance


The impulse (area under the thrust-time curve) of a black powder motor is used to determine its class. Motors are divided into classes from 1/4A to E, which covers an impulse range of 0 to 40 Ns (Newtons*seconds). Other types of model rocket motors can be classified up to an ‘H’, which is up to 320 Ns, and even further in some cases. Each classes upper limit is double the upper limit of the previous classes.

For miniature black powder rocket motors (13 mm diameter), the maximum thrust is between 5 and 12 N, the total impulse is between .5 and 2.2 Ns, and the burn time is between .25 and 1 second. For Estes ‘regular size’ rocket motors (18 mm diameter), there are three classes: A, B, and C. The A class 18 mm motors have a maximum thrust between 9.5 and 9.75 N, a total impulse between 2.1 and 2.3 Ns, and a burn time between .5 and .75 seconds. The B class 18 mm motors have a maximum thrust between 12.15 and 12.75 N, a total impulse between 4.2 and 4.35 Ns, and a burn time between .85 and 1 second. The C class 18mm motors have a maximum thrust from 14 – 14.15 N, a total impulse between 8.8 and 9 Ns, and a burn time between 1.85 and 2 seconds.Figures from tests of Estes rocket motors are used in the following examples of rocket motor performance.


There are also 3 classes included in Estes large (24 mm diameter) rocket motors: C, D, and E. The C class 24 mm motors have a maximum thrust between 21.6 and 21.75 N, a total impulse of between 8.8 and 9 Ns, and a burn time between .8 and .85 seconds. The D class 24 mm motors have a maximum thrust between 29.7 and 29.8 N, a total impulse between 16.7 and 16.85 Ns, and a burn time between 1.6 and 1.7 seconds. The E class 24 mm motors have a maximum thrust between 19.4 and 19.5 N, a total impulse between 28.45 and 28.6 Ns, and a burn time between 3 and 3.1 seconds.

-WP-

Edited by dagabu, 15 February 2012 - 11:20 AM.


#15 donperry

donperry

    Pyromaniac

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 149 posts

Posted 15 February 2012 - 11:00 AM

Also if you want to make a time delay bulk head with the propellant you need to add 1% iron oxide to keep the propellant lit as the chamber pressure drops after burn out. This the basics for my sugar motors I hope it helps.


I agree. I once used a 1/2 inch CPVC pipe for my delay grain. I had red iron oxide in it. Really keeps it going.

#16 THEONE

THEONE

    Pyrotechnician

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 350 posts

Posted 16 February 2012 - 07:15 AM

Also if you want to make a time delay bulk head with the propellant you need to add 1% iron oxide to keep the propellant lit as the chamber pressure drops after burn out. This the basics for my sugar motors I hope it helps.


Does anybody know why this is happening ? why when the motor΄s chamber pressure drops after burn out the delay grain has the tendency to lit off ?

#17 Nessalco

Nessalco

    Pyrotechnician

  • HE Qualified
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 206 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vermont
  • Interests:Pyro, high power hybrid rockets, local government

Posted 16 February 2012 - 09:43 AM

Hmmm. I've yet to experience that arrogance though. Maybe they have matured or were going through a phase in life :D


Ummm... no.

The rocketry folk are well known for eating their young. I've mostly moved away from the hobby, though I still fly locally and participate with outreach efforts - anything to get kids interested in science.

Kevin
“Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.” -A. Lincoln

#18 dagabu

dagabu

    Grandmaster

  • Donator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,840 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Up Nort

Posted 16 February 2012 - 10:53 AM

Ummm... no.

The rocketry folk are well known for eating their young. I've mostly moved away from the hobby, though I still fly locally and participate with outreach efforts - anything to get kids interested in science.

Kevin


For me it was more of the have-have nots. The groups with lots of money completely ignored smaller groups with small budgets. We were in the middle money-wise but still struggled to be treated fairly on launch day.

-dag

#19 anapogeetoofar

anapogeetoofar

    Pyromaniac

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 62 posts

Posted 16 February 2012 - 06:55 PM

None of that seems to be present in independent amateur groups, must be exclusive with the Tripoli/NAR crowd. Though pyro is certainly more grassroots and laid back, probably because its more art than science.

#20 dagabu

dagabu

    Grandmaster

  • Donator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,840 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Up Nort

Posted 17 February 2012 - 07:40 AM

None of that seems to be present in independent amateur groups, must be exclusive with the Tripoli/NAR crowd. Though pyro is certainly more grassroots and laid back, probably because its more art than science.


I like that, "probably because its more art than science."

-dag




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users