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friction ringpull igniter composition


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34 replies to this topic

#1 dave321

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 01:03 PM

i have just been examining a chinese version of a ring pull igniter.

you have to admire the chinese for a very efficient, small, simple and what must be extremely cheap pull ignitor.

i was surprised that the pull through copper wire was not coated at all (i expected red phosphorus coating)

it basicall consists of an ignition cup (5mm dimeter) with small central hole in bottom (through which the copper wire is passes through).
the cup is filled with a blackish composition.
the copper wire passes through this and is coiled about 4 times so as to stick out slightly above the top.
this coiled bit of wire has been roughend (observed through inspection lens).
the cup and wire assembly is placed in a bit of what appears to be flexible silicon tube ~ 2.5cm in length.
the flexible tube is pierced in the middle through its diameter, through which a piece of white chinese paper fuse passes (like crossmatching).

it produces a "relativley" none violent spit of flame which easily ignites the paper fuse, which can ignite a suitable device like blackmatch.

its simplicity, cheapness and effectiveness has to be admired.

what might be a suitable composition for the igniter cup ?
i am thinking of chlorate antimony sulphide type ?perhaps with a bit of emery powder abrasive thrown in
but i am sure i have read that it is difficult to ignite chlorate antimony sulphide mixtures with friction from a pull wire.

any other ideas for a mixture????

obviously this would be a small scale, wet evaluation process to test, like dipping your own igniters.

appreciate any comments since i cannot locate any useful phosphorus free pull igniter patents.

dave
dave

#2 dagabu

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 01:54 PM

We used the M117 simulated booby traps in training now 23 years ago (Egads! Can it have been THAT long ago?). They had a pull string and a flat tab that you would staple or nail to a tree. We had lots of duds since they were WWll surplus and so we took some of them apart to see what they had inside of them.

The pull igniter looked EXACTLY like the ones found in champagne party poppers only they were about 3/16" across with a stout piece of string attached to it. My guess is the M117s were filled with flash since it was a grey powder inside it.

I have made many since then for paintball using a M1000 firecracker with the party popper pull string igniter pushed into them (the ends are plastic and if you pull the fuse out and use an awl to open the hole a tiny bit, you can push the igniter into the cracker) and a tape tab on the back side to thumb tack it to a tree. Some tapped a few paintballs to them for splatter but I saw it as shrapnel.

The party popper igniters can be used the same way in a quick match bucket with dusted black match and a couple holes for gas dispersion. I made a short home movie a decade ago with a buddy using several of these along a path to simulate mortar rounds going off as he was running. The film was horrible but the explosions were pretty cool!

-dag

#3 dave321

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 08:54 AM

hi dag,

the party popper surrounded by strands of quick match seems to work pretty good,(just tried it)

however, when i see something like the pull ignitor above, i'm really curious as to the composition used.

i ve tried chlorate antimony sulphide, with and without pot dichromate as a sensitiser, also just binding with water instead of gum arabic and
i still cant get any friction ignition from the same cup and wire the chinese igniter uses

im beginng to think chlorate ant sulphide is not that friction sensitive .............I KNOW , I Know.........DONT SAY THAT !!!!

(i am using micro amounts !!)

anyone any other ideas as to a "more" senstive composition NOT using red phosphorus ?

dave
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#4 dagabu

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 09:03 AM

hi dag,

the party popper surrounded by strands of quick match seems to work pretty good,(just tried it)

however, when i see something like the pull ignitor above, i'm really curious as to the composition used.

i ve tried chlorate antimony sulphide, with and without pot dichromate as a sensitiser, also just binding with water instead of gum arabic and
i still cant get any friction ignition from the same cup and wire the chinese igniter uses

im beginng to think chlorate ant sulphide is not that friction sensitive .............I KNOW , I Know.........DONT SAY THAT !!!!

(i am using micro amounts !!)

anyone any other ideas as to a "more" senstive composition NOT using red phosphorus ?

dave


I am not aware of one but I am not the chem guy, Mum or others know vast amounts about such things, I just use the party poppers and save the time and trouble.

-dag

#5 FlaMtnBkr

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 03:51 PM

Since this thread isn't that old I figured I would reply to it instead of making a new one.

Dave,

Any chance you could draw up a simple drawing for the pull ignitor? I am having a hard time picturing the coiled loops of wire and how it is all inserted in the rubber tubing.

Did you ever have success with a friction sensitive composition? I have done some experimenting with small exploding targets that are sensitive to a BB gun but I'm not sure that is sensitive enough. I can look in my notebook and post the formula if you didn't find anything that worked.

I would like to work on smoke grenades so I figure a pull ignitor would be helpful if I did ever use them for paintball or something similar. Thanks!

#6 Arthur

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 03:30 AM

Shimizu's book lists pull igniters and their manufacture, formulation and safe handling. Please READ the notes and cautions he offers before trying to make them. (P275 in my copy)

#7 dave321

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 12:21 PM

Shimizu's book lists pull igniters and their manufacture, formulation and safe handling. Please READ the notes and cautions he offers before trying to make them. (P275 in my copy)


hi arthur, how are doing ? :)

yeah i got a first edition of shimizu..........great book along with lancasters (i have the first and 3rd edition of the latter).

i think the thing about the ring pull i was refering to is that
1) it appears not to use red phos.
2) its sufficiently sensitive to a roughend coiled copper wire

for a diagram see attachment.

i'm not sure chlorate/ ant sulphide is sufficiently sensitive..........anyway my curiosity has been sated, i'm looking at other things at the moment.

dave

Attached Files


dave

#8 dave321

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 12:23 PM

Since this thread isn't that old I figured I would reply to it instead of making a new one.

Dave,

Any chance you could draw up a simple drawing for the pull ignitor? I am having a hard time picturing the coiled loops of wire and how it is all inserted in the rubber tubing.

Did you ever have success with a friction sensitive composition? I have done some experimenting with small exploding targets that are sensitive to a BB gun but I'm not sure that is sensitive enough. I can look in my notebook and post the formula if you didn't find anything that worked.

I would like to work on smoke grenades so I figure a pull ignitor would be helpful if I did ever use them for paintball or something similar. Thanks!


hi,
see attached

dave

Attached Files


dave

#9 FlaMtnBkr

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 07:28 PM

hi,
see attached

dave


Hi Dave,


Thank you very much for the drawing. Couple quick questions.

1. When the ring is pulled it causes the coils of copper wire to unwind and pull through the comp?

2. Is the copper cap it is housed in sufficiently tight in the tubing to not pull out when pulling the ring? Or is it glued or somehow mechanically attached?

3. Does the copper wire look like it just had some sandpaper gone over it to roughen it up or are there deeper scratches from something like a file?

4. Do you know approximately what diameter the copper wire is?

5. Is the whole device inserted into the smoke composition or just the end of the rubber tubing along with the fuse?

Thanks again for taking the time to draw that up. I am planning on experimenting based on this design as a starting point and will let you know if I get anywhere with it. I have been experimenting with various smoke comps and have ordered some more chemicals to try more formulas. The pull ring igniter just seems like a logical next step in perfecting a great smoke 'bomb'.

#10 guntoteninfadel

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 07:41 PM

Stupid question, what would disadvantagous(sp) to a snap cap like in grenades with an attached spoillette? seems to me much easier to build.
GTI
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go"
Oscar Wilde

#11 Peret

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 10:27 PM

I acquired some old distress rockets once, and they had some kind of impact igniter. There was still a ring and a string, but when you pulled it (against stiff resistance), at a certain point it 'snapped', the string came free, and the rocket lit up. I imagine it would be safer and more reliable to make such a thing using (eg) shotshell primers than with friction compounds, though it would take some mechanical ingenuity.

#12 guntoteninfadel

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 11:18 PM

shotshell primers.......... why didnt I think of that! I may try to come up with something like that next....... hmmmmmmm
GTI
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go"
Oscar Wilde

#13 Dr Boom

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 03:10 AM

Just reading over this a little and thought I'd throw out a couple ideas.

For one, be careful with the lead styphnate in 209 primers and I do not recommend any disassembly of them to acquire the chemical. A errant finger nail on the crystals would cause an explosion and send the aluminum housing into your fingers/hands/etc as shrapnel. I've seen "tools" crush the powder and pop too.

I did a tutorial in 2009 on pull string ignitors- you guys might want to have a look:
http://www.amateurpy...5-pull-ignitor/

The exact composition, I'd have to look for in my books but it is a modified chlorate mixture similiar to the old railroad torpedos. Dag is old enough to remember those :rolleyes: ... hehe, j/k

And yes, a rough'd piece of 22 ga copper wire is perfect for it. I've seen another composition that was in "steps" with portions in very thin layers so there would be no chance of explosion- rather a slight pop and then a burn. I'll draw up the schematic this weekend and post it.

Edited by Dr Boom, 02 October 2011 - 03:18 AM.

- Doc -

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Roger Bacon - 1251 Anno Domini

#14 dave321

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 12:17 PM

[quote name='FlaMtnBkr' timestamp='1317518880' post='85576']
Hi Dave,


Thank you very much for the drawing. Couple quick questions.

1. When the ring is pulled it causes the coils of copper wire to unwind and pull through the comp? YES

2. Is the copper cap it is housed in sufficiently tight in the tubing to not pull out when pulling the ring? Or is it glued or somehow mechanically attached?
THE COPPER WIRE PASSES THROUGH THE CARDBOARD SMOKE TUBE SO THE COPPER CUP IS ACTUALY AGAINST THE INNER WALL OF THE CARDBOARD TUBE
AND IS THUS HELD IN PLACE


3. Does the copper wire look like it just had some sandpaper gone over it to roughen it up or are there deeper scratches from something like a file?
POSSIBLY SANDPAPER, OR A FILE, ITS QUITE ROUGH

4. Do you know approximately what diameter the copper wire is? ~0.6MM
5. Is the whole device inserted into the smoke composition or just the end of the rubber tubing along with the fuse?
ONLY THE WHITE PAPER CHINESE FUSE ENTERS AN IGNITION COMP FOR THE SMOKE

Thanks again for taking the time to draw that up. I am planning on experimenting based on this design as a starting point and will let you know if I get anywhere with it. I have been experimenting with various smoke comps and have ordered some more chemicals to try more formulas. The pull ring igniter just seems like a logical next step in perfecting a great smoke 'bomb'.
[/quot

dave
dave

#15 dave321

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 12:22 PM

Just reading over this a little and thought I'd throw out a couple ideas.

For one, be careful with the lead styphnate in 209 primers and I do not recommend any disassembly of them to acquire the chemical. A errant finger nail on the crystals would cause an explosion and send the aluminum housing into your fingers/hands/etc as shrapnel. I've seen "tools" crush the powder and pop too.

I did a tutorial in 2009 on pull string ignitors- you guys might want to have a look:
http://www.amateurpy...5-pull-ignitor/

The exact composition, I'd have to look for in my books but it is a modified chlorate mixture similiar to the old railroad torpedos. Dag is old enough to remember those :rolleyes: ... hehe, j/k

And yes, a rough'd piece of 22 ga copper wire is perfect for it. I've seen another composition that was in "steps" with portions in very thin layers so there would be no chance of explosion- rather a slight pop and then a burn. I'll draw up the schematic this weekend and post it.


hi dr boom,

one point, the igniter does not explode producing a bang, it is purely a hot white sparky flame for ignition, and it appears to be very reliable and cheap.
the secret is in the composition used.

you could be right re a stepped composition.

look forward to your schematic and possible useable composition ?

always collecting info :lol:

dave

Edited by dave321, 02 October 2011 - 12:23 PM.

dave

#16 Dr Boom

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 07:15 PM

hi dr boom,

one point, the igniter does not explode producing a bang, it is purely a hot white sparky flame for ignition, and it appears to be very reliable and cheap.
the secret is in the composition used.

you could be right re a stepped composition.

look forward to your schematic and possible useable composition ?

always collecting info :lol:

dave


My apologies for the delay in the diagram post- I lost internet here for a while. I'll work on the upload this week.
I know of 3 different pull compositions that will work but the chemicals are hard to get or near impossible to get now. One uses potassium permanganate, the 2nd uses a chlorate/powdered glass setup with sulfur, and the 3rd uses red phosphorous.

I'll take a look around for the exact formulas but I'm not sure where I have them. I know of one military style system that uses a formed and pressed "pellet" with a hole in it. The wire is inserted in one end and the rest of the wire is twisted and dipped into a glue slurry that contains a sensitizing agent. I will include this design also.
- Doc -

"When the flame of powder toucheth the soul of man, it burneth exceeding deep."

Roger Bacon - 1251 Anno Domini

#17 Dr Boom

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 01:16 AM

Got the igniter drawing scanned up, and asked a couple of guys I work with about the igniters and they are telling me that a "pressed pellet" with a hole in the middle is the most common pull igniter used today. The pellets are quite dense and can be used in multiple ways to achieve ignition. A coiled wire is used where space is extremely limited or a twisted/braided wire is used where length of draw is not an issue.

Attached File  Igniter2.pdf   172.58KB   67 downloads

Ground glass was a key ingredient throughout the discussion and diatomaceous earth was mentioned once or twice. These two, added in minute amounts, these items increased surface friction. One design (see drawing) was a pressed cap where a "buffer" was placed between two reactive compounds. The thin oxidizer layer was Chlorate, ground glass, and binder. The buffer was an antiacid with binder. The fuel layer was sulfur, airfloat charcoal and trace antimony or magnesium powders.

I asked about "roughing" the wire and the response I got was mixed- "depends on the sensitivity of the mixtures" but the general consensus was yes, rough the wire. This helps with adhesion of the oxidizer/binder mixture to stick to the wire.

Another possibility was red phosphorus/binder and chlorate/antiacid/fuel. The ratios of Red P to Chlorate were so small that the assembly could be dropped from a height of 6 feet without premature activation.

Hope this gives you some more direction-
- Doc -

"When the flame of powder toucheth the soul of man, it burneth exceeding deep."

Roger Bacon - 1251 Anno Domini

#18 dave321

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 01:55 AM

thank you dr boom,

appreciate your time with that

always collecting info :)

dave
dave

#19 Timm

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 05:20 AM

I have always wanted a reliable and safe pull ignitor system, and made some headway, but was always hard to nail down both requisites 100% it seemed, was always a trade-off, as is nearly everything in pyro..

One method i used was to cut a party-popper off at the top of the "bell", leaving just the skinny plastic tube part with the pull-ignitor device inside, adding 2.2 grains of pyrodex (yes its critical..!), then the roughened/slightly frayed end of the cannonfuse, and holding it in place with two little bits of black open-celled foam. The foam kept the powder from falling out, and helped absorb some of the ...Pow!! from the paper popper deal.
This whole shebang was pushed into a short bit of, say 3/8"ish ID vinyl tubing, and a tiny finish nail poked through the vinyl tubing on the string side, to prevent it from being pulled out instead of popped. (this can now be taped to a short stick, or directly to your firework depending on what it is and how well its constructed and sealed) The pop from these lil things can be substantial, and the difference between 2 and 3 grains of powder can be suprising.. Make and test many before risking any precious flesh to such a device!! One shot out of the tubing during development and takked me in the thumb like a muther, (in the cold, of course) hurt like hell.. A less-experienced pyro may have forgotten to throw the ahem smoke bomb!!
So be careful, we know what you're tryin to do with these things and its dangerous as hell. You pretty much cant blame anyone if you lose some bits because your homade toy grenade blew up premature!

#20 thepirke

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 09:04 PM

Thnx guys. For a long time i've been looking for a decent ringpull igniter design :D








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