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USAPyro's No-NC Dragon Eggs


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#1 usapyro

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 03:00 AM

USAPryo's Dragon Eggs
Bismuth Trioxide 33.5g
CuO 33.5g
MgAl 50:50 22.3g
KCL04 5.7g
Red Gum 5g - Binder (Alcohol)

USAPyro's Dragon Eggs Inner Prime
BP Meal 20g
KNO3 40g
Silicon 40g
*Optional: +5g Red Gum - Binder (Alcohol)

USAPyro's Dragon Eggs Outer Prime
BP Meal 84g
KNO3 8g
Silicon 8g
*Optional: +5g Red Gum - Binder (Alcohol)
Outer prime should not be necessary except in special situations... Eg, dragon egg cores in
a fast burning willow star.

*Red Gum not necessary if using NC Lacquer 3% spray binder.
Wax/NC Lacquer coat outer prime for perfect seal.

The main advantage of this formula is that it makes the mixing part of making dragon eggs a piece of cake! Just takes two minutes
to mix and wet and then the pressing/cutting part takes a while... Hmmm...

For best effect press the eggs to the right height between two sheets of wax paper with a flour roller then cut into squares.
Doesn't generally need a prime if used in dry pressed hot fountains. (Fountains with metal.)

Use (100-200) mesh MgAl for 3-5mm dragon eggs. (Thoroughly tested with excellent reliability at 4mm) - MgAl from AmericanPyroSupply
Use (200-325) mesh MgAl for 1.5-3mm dragon eggs. (Assumed to work)

Troubleshooting Tip: If they are glowing and going out, make them bigger. If they fizzle the KClO4 probably wasn't fine enough or mixed in well enough. Mortar and pestle the KClO4 and Bizmuth by themselves... That makes it easy.

The funnest thing to do with these I have found is to take out a jet lighter... Light a corner (Just light it enough so that you see some glowing) and stand back... It will take a few seconds for the entire thing to glow... Then BOOM!
I have made a video but won't be able to upload it until sometime next week. I will also get around to testing to see if +5g Atomized Al is an improvement in the formula.

Edit: Formula update.
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#2 usapyro

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 12:56 AM

This demonstration video is so awesome it deserves it's own post...

Edit, Note: The dragon eggs at the very end past the credits were primed. The unprimed ones at the start of the video had 1% more KClO4 than the ones in the formula shown above. You don't need as much KClO4 with a good prime.


Edited by usapyro, 07 June 2011 - 12:34 PM.

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#3 Karlos

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 04:22 AM

Good work! I am pleased, that You are presenting red gum binder in crackling! NC = shit work. What about KClO4 addition? It is really necessary for reaction?
Eggs can be too made by granulating method by sieve. Not classic sieve methos, but granules extruded through sieve, are immediatelly transformed to round grains, in bucket by hand gyration, than sorted to 1,5 - 2,5 mm.
I hope, that You will show us a night effect. Noise is perfect, but good eggs must produce nice crackling spark-flowers.
Thank you.

#4 fredhappy

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 08:17 AM

Great job!

Finally somebody who tests and films innovative stuff, instead of just talking a lot and saying little.......
Great contribution,, thanks for sharing.

#5 usapyro

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 12:30 PM

Good work! I am pleased, that You are presenting red gum binder in crackling! NC = shit work. What about KClO4 addition? It is really necessary for reaction?
Eggs can be too made by granulating method by sieve. Not classic sieve methos, but granules extruded through sieve, are immediatelly transformed to round grains, in bucket by hand gyration, than sorted to 1,5 - 2,5 mm.
I hope, that You will show us a night effect. Noise is perfect, but good eggs must produce nice crackling spark-flowers.
Thank you.


Yea, the KClO4 is required to assist with the smouldering stage. I might be moving to a more fine mesh of MgAl and smaller star cores for faster crackle. However, attempting to make them go faster via a hotter thermite prime may be a good idea first...
8g+ KClO4 = burning dragon eggs. < 3g = smoulder issues. After I finalize the fine tuning of KClO4. Testing the entire range from +2g to +7g thoroughly...

I have a theory that I can lower the bismuth a LOT more and take up the slack with CuO to a certain point where things get unreliable... Where that point is will be the question. :)
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#6 usapyro

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 06:47 PM

Eh... I don't even believe this... This works perfect...

USAPryo's Low Bismuth Dragon Eggs
Bismuth Trioxide 15g
CuO 50.5g
MgAl 50:50 23.5g (100-200 Mesh optimal for 2.5-5mm Eggs)
KCl04 6g
Red Gum 5g - Binder (Alcohol)

Edit: Updated and revised formulas. It appears that MgAl is optimal at 23.5%. Going above that level results in less reliability and more potential for dragon eggs that just burn with a flame. It appears my formulas are truly optimized for the exact grade of MgAl I am using. The bottom line of what this means is that with a (200-325 Mesh) MgAl you may need to lower the percentage of MgAl in the formula in order to get it to work right... Will test once I get my new MgAl.

Main formula has been simplified/optimized down a bit more. Doesn't really appear to matter which one you use... All seem to work about exactly the same... Low bismuth or higher bismuth.

UPDATED MAIN COMPOSITION
USAPryo's Dragon Eggs
Bismuth Trioxide 30.0g
CuO 35.5g
MgAl 50:50 23.5g (100-200 Mesh optimal for 2.5-5mm Eggs)
KCl04 6g
Red Gum 5g - Binder (Alcohol)

UPDATED PRIMES
USAPyro's Dragon Egg Inner Prime
BP Meal 30g
KNO3 35g
Silicon 35g
Optional: +5g Red Gum - Binder (Alcohol)

Edit: I have recently discovered that a slightly cooler prime actually results in higher reliability and a louder report... Overheating parts of the dragon egg can cause parts to burn off before the entire thing explodes. The hotness of the prime needs to be adjusted relative to dragon egg size if you want things perfect.

USAPyro's Dragon Egg Outer Prime
BP Meal 100g
Optional: +5g Red Gum - Binder (Alcohol)

Edited by usapyro, 08 June 2011 - 02:44 PM.

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#7 Anarchy08

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 09:55 AM

gday ,
found your posts an interesting read that someone has gone through the effort of testing mesh sizes and magnalium percentages in a deggs formula,
I was wondering so what extent you have looked into nitrates leeching into the egg, obviously your using perchlorate for temp reasons.
but your using straight black powder as a prime using the same binding methods, taken into consideration the solubility of the nitrate in ethanol.
have you had any problems with miss fires because of the primes and binding methods of the primes. interesting you mentioned a cooler prime i have also ran into problems with 70/20/10 degg prime consuming smaller eggs instead of igniting them.




#8 usapyro

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 01:02 PM

gday ,
found your posts an interesting read that someone has gone through the effort of testing mesh sizes and magnalium percentages in a deggs formula,
I was wondering so what extent you have looked into nitrates leeching into the egg, obviously your using perchlorate for temp reasons.
but your using straight black powder as a prime using the same binding methods, taken into consideration the solubility of the nitrate in ethanol.
have you had any problems with miss fires because of the primes and binding methods of the primes. interesting you mentioned a cooler prime i have also ran into problems with 70/20/10 degg prime consuming smaller eggs instead of igniting them.


I have been binding the prime onto the eggs with a nitrocellulose spray and at the rate that stuff dries I have had no problem with it. If done properly in a star roller making sure not to get things too moist I don't think there should be problems using ethanol either. But, have not tried it yet.

If a prime is too hot sometimes there is a little "crackling" sound as tiny parts burn off, but it's probably only like a 15% max loss in mass before the big bang. So no... I don't get full misfires.
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#9 Mumbles

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 04:15 PM

There's been talk before about how DE's were originally developed with a different alloy of MgAl than we typically use. This is why you see aluminum in some compositions, typically around 15:5 MgAl:Al. It's reported to be significantly louder. Have you tried that by any chance?
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#10 usapyro

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 11:15 PM

There's been talk before about how DE's were originally developed with a different alloy of MgAl than we typically use. This is why you see aluminum in some compositions, typically around 15:5 MgAl:Al. It's reported to be significantly louder. Have you tried that by any chance?


I did in fact notice that adding 3%+ Atomized Al increased loudness. However for the sake of fine-tuning I excluded it from these formulas because it just complicated things. Also, I was using a -325 Mesh which reduced reliability slightly... I assume using Around a 200 mesh Atomized Al would be more optimal and not reduce reliability.
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#11 vh718

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 02:02 PM

would adding a small amount of Ti to the comp make a nice silver effect, without affecting the reliability?

#12 usapyro

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 04:45 PM

would adding a small amount of Ti to the comp make a nice silver effect, without affecting the reliability?


It's better to just prime the dragon eggs with a "smouldering" Ti composition. A glitter overloaded with sulfur and Ti added will work.... I have a composition for it but it's on my other computer. :/
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#13 usapyro

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 04:10 AM

For those who are trying to get this comp to work with different MgAl I have some interesting findings... Finally got around to testing 200-325 MgAl a bit.

These compositions are tricky and need to practically be tuned for the exact grades of MgAl as it comes from different suppliers/factories. If the comp burns, you need less MgAl or KClO4. If it doesn't smoulder properly you can add more KClO4 to a point or increase MgAl. This formula right here is okay. Ill tune it a bit more later...

USAPryo's Dragon Eggs (1.5-2.5mm)
Bismuth Trioxide 35g
CuO 38g
MgAl 50:50 18g (200-325 Mesh)
KCl04 4g
Red Gum 5g - Binder (Alcohol)


My Main tuned in formula is now simplified to...

USAPryo's Dragon Eggs (2.5-4.5mm)
Bismuth Trioxide 30g
CuO 35g
MgAl 50:50 24g (100-200 Mesh)
KCl04 6g
Red Gum 5g - Binder (Alcohol)


So, if theoretically you wanted to modify this formula for 80 to 150 mesh MgAl or something of that sort to get massive dragon eggs of 4.5-7.5mm... Here are my thoughts at the moment without any testing. Do very small batches starting with my main 100-200 mesh tuned formula and increase KClO4 if it fails to smoulder. If it goes straight from non smoulder to burn, back off the KClO4 back to around 6.5g and then try increasing MgAl in small increments.

Also, it may be possible to get -325 mesh MgAl to work for very small eggs. You should try my main formula with 2% KClO4 and somewhere in the 8-14% MgAl range there should be a sweet spot.

The bottom line though is there is a specific sweet spot where you get perfect oxygen balance of Bismuth Trioxide and CuO to MgAl with a certain mesh size... Somewhere around 100 mesh is the sweet spot. Going smaller with dragon eggs and the formula becomes very inefficient because of the need for very low amounts of MgAl and your not going to be getting much bang for your buck. You must use smaller amounts of MgAl in the formula the finer the mesh MgAl you use in order to have a proper reaction rate.

The grading of commercial MgAl is definitely not optimal for dragons eggs... For the best most reliable dragons eggs you need a tighter mesh range... Like 150 - 175, or 100 - 120. Of course, you need to alloy your own MgAl, grind, and buy custom screens to do that.

Edited by usapyro, 10 January 2012 - 04:41 AM.

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#14 justhininabouti

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 06:32 AM

I've only had magrginal sucuess with dragon eggs, and have been looking for ideas to get them right. Your formula looks a lot easier then the NC eggs I've tried in the past, and I want to give them a try. My question is about the silicon for the primes, Silicon is not in my current inventory of chemicals could a substitute be use (like saran)?

#15 californiapyro

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 08:51 AM

you'd probably be better off using a metal of some sort... saran really isnt similar to silicon
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#16 justhininabouti

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 09:50 AM

I see your point. I was thiking oxygen donation, but I realize now that isn't the purpose of the silicon, it would be the fuel. I can always get the silicon, I was looking for a 'quick fix' to may lack of the proper supplies. I've got a formula fo a 'hot' prime, but by the sounds of it I might be better off sticking to the tested formulas for these eggs, unless someone has an equlvilant.

#17 justhininabouti

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 03:46 PM

I guess I'll have to put in an order. I thought I had the Bismuth Trioxide, but don't so I'll have to get it and the Silicon. I have Lead Tetraoxide, but I'm not sure I want to attempt a substitution there, unless someone knows it will work. That Bi2O3 is expensive $45.00/Lb? Any place have it for less?

Edited by justhininabouti, 12 January 2012 - 04:10 PM.


#18 usapyro

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 04:22 PM

You can substitute aluminum or magnalium for silicon. You will need slightly different ratio's though... Basically all you need is a near thermite hot star prime.

You can get bismuth oxide(which is actually trioxide) off uspigment.com for a good price. Inhaling lead vapors constantly when lighting dragon eggs on the ground and in fountains/etc really isn't wise...

Edited by usapyro, 12 January 2012 - 04:33 PM.

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#19 justhininabouti

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 06:25 PM

You can substitute aluminum or magnalium for silicon. You will need slightly different ratio's though... Basically all you need is a near thermite hot star prime.

You can get bismuth oxide(which is actually trioxide) off uspigment.com for a good price. Inhaling lead vapors constantly when lighting dragon eggs on the ground and in fountains/etc really isn't wise...



I checked uspigment's prices, and they are better than Skylighter. I'll be giving them a call tomorrow. I've noticed that there are formulas that ask for Bismuth Trioxide or Bismuth SubCarbonate ( (BiO)2CO3) ) as though they are interchangable. Would you consider this true for your formula?


I've got a small amount of Pb3O4 left. I think I'll try it as a substitute for the Bi2O3 in your formula. Not being very good at the chemistry of it, I'm thinking the Lead would be reduced by about 20%? Any suguestions?

#20 justhininabouti

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 09:42 PM

usapyro... Another question... Do you have any special mixing instructions for the eggs?

Never mind... Just went back and reread the topic from the beginning and there it was... Sorry.

However. Has anyone rolled these? do they hold up if using a 25% alcohol solution for rolling?

Edited by justhininabouti, 12 January 2012 - 10:01 PM.





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