RogueSwimmer Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 It's not essential if I join or not. I am curious if there are any creative minds like myself on this forum. If everyone is blasting same things we were 10 years ago, then it isn't much different than E&W archive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrojig Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) Rogue Swimmer Wrote: ">You're giving a lecture to someone you are not qualified to give a lecture to. Now, where are these mods who are supposed to invite me to the forum? I dont think your gonna attract the right attention from the Mod's of this site with arrogant response like the one above. It makes you sound reckless and knewlish. It is one thing to claim to do something and another to speak intelligently about it with experience and humbleness. We dont know enough about you from just a few posts, so how are we able to take you at your word? This site needs to see consistency and solid info. and good references from someone claiming what you do. Rocketcandy is hardly something to claim any experience in anything energetic. Im sure your done more than that, but proof is in good informative posts . Edited January 20, 2012 by pyrojig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Really? It seems like only most "experienced" people are allowed to HE section here. Well, I'm about as experienced as they come. High energetics is more of an art than the regular pyrotechnics and it has 0 tolerance for mistakes. "Cheap thrill of watching something blow up".....no, that's rednecks who shoot exploding targets. I like experimenting with compositions to see how to optimize performance. Besides that, there is initiation, which is a whole new art in itself. You're giving a lecture to someone you are not qualified to give a lecture to. Now, where are these mods who are supposed to invite me to the forum? Rogue, PM Mumbles for access to the HE section. There are no invites here. -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueSwimmer Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) Mr. Mumbles kindly informed me that even the energetic section is geared towards low explosive pyrotechnics as of late, so I wouldn't be able to contribute anything of value, honestly. I would still say this forum is a good resource for all pyros, both who love low and high energetics. @pyrojig, The gentleman started to lecture me right off the bat on values of pyrotechnics as if I was a teenager who stumbled here asking what is the best APAN ratio. And where did he get the idea that there is an association between fireworks and HE. There isn't, and even uneducated public understands the difference between a "firework" and a "bomb". So, take my response in that context. As far as my pyrotechnic experience, there really isn't much more than rcandy motors (up to H size) that I've made, several thermitic compositions and what not, and never made flash powders, for obvious reasons. It's fair to say I am a relatively new to fireworks, but I would catch on rather quickly being able to make rockets that can launch huge payloads. Edited January 20, 2012 by RogueSwimmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
californiapyro Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 your first posts came off very defensive... but, if you do high powered rocketry and HE, then surely there's a place here for that. what does H convert to in pounds, or tube ID? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueSwimmer Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I remember using slim long design, 1'' PVC, and probably with 5/8 washer for a nozzle. So the burn time was 1.5-2 seconds of monstrous impulse. I know it had over 100lbs of lift(not to be confused with being able to "carry" 100's of lbs). Bates grain motors are fun for a reason of being able to adjust them to what suits you, by simply changing the number of grains, grain ID,or the nozzle size. So I had rockets fly at supersonic speed where a camera could not even catch the liftoff- people told me it CATO'd, but it never had. I had to use kno3/sugars/sorbitols due to low cost, but if I took it up again, I'd definitely stop melting pounds of candy in my kitchen and switch to AP binder grains. Thing with rockets was that it took me 3-5 hours to build a good rocket. It was fun, but boy it was hard work. Then a short flight with no ability to retrieve the rocket since I had to launch them above the lake away from the city. I am not lazy, but nowdays to make and test a charge I need no more than 10 minutes to gear up, assuming I already made a cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrojig Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I remember using slim long design, 1'' PVC, and probably with 5/8 washer for a nozzle. So the burn time was 1.5-2 seconds of monstrous impulse. I know it had over 100lbs of lift(not to be confused with being able to "carry" 100's of lbs). Bates grain motors are fun for a reason of being able to adjust them to what suits you, by simply changing the number of grains, grain ID,or the nozzle size. So I had rockets fly at supersonic speed where a camera could not even catch the liftoff- people told me it CATO'd, but it never had. I had to use kno3/sugars/sorbitols due to low cost, but if I took it up again, I'd definitely stop melting pounds of candy in my kitchen and switch to AP binder grains. Thing with rockets was that it took me 3-5 hours to build a good rocket. It was fun, but boy it was hard work. Then a short flight with no ability to retrieve the rocket since I had to launch them above the lake away from the city. I am not lazy, but nowdays to make and test a charge I need no more than 10 minutes to gear up, assuming I already made a cap. Your best bet on energetic's discussions is going to be over at the Science Maddness Forum. There are some very intelligent and well educated fellows over their who can more openly discuss energetic's in a professional manner. I never found a kitchen as a safe place to cook or dry anything energetic as fuels etc. This is chancing a house fire, and I have seen how touchy RC can be if slightly overheated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueSwimmer Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 You haven't seen Sciencemadness lately, have you? The forum is dying out with few people having the chemistry savvy to discuss theoretical topics. And with no practical testing, it is not intriguing to new ""blower-uppers". My best bet is to google "high explosives forums" and see what I can come up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hst45 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 In an attempt to calm the waters and return the discussion to the posted topic, A few comments to Delerious: 1) Thanks for the informative data. It was well thought out and well presented.2) As a fan of these .22 "kickers", I have found that KClO4 is the oxidizer of choice, and it's really helpful to have something relatively coarse in the mix. My personal theory is that this grinding effect initiates deflagration. Try coarse MgAl, even MgAl turnings.3) Many will gasp, but adding 10% sulfur will help sensitize these mixes. 70/30, +10% sulfur, +15% MgAl turnings in a soda bottle cap glued to a piece of cardboard will pop delightfully with a .22......at least that's what I'm told , but be CAREFUL, they are SENSITIVE. Small batches only, mixed and used, never stored and never transported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueSwimmer Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Allow me to contribute before I depart. I think no one proposed of cheddites. With .22 rifle it might detonate low or high order, but I'd assume high order based on its sensitivity. Of binary HE mixes these chlorate cheddites are VERY sensitive HE's, that go off from something like 50mg of a blasting cap-which is a VERY tiny initiator. Things that could be tried are: KCLO3/ vaseline --- 90:10 not the most sensitive, but "relatively" safeKCLO3/vaseline/activated charcoal- ---- I wouldn't even care about OB here, just make the mix a little bit positive, say 93:5:2 KCLO3/AN/ NM --- this one I don't know much on, but could be experimented with; once again, the mix should be oxygen positive for best sensitivity. Stay away from sulfur with KCLO3's and other know incompatible sensitizers. Obviously, do a diligent research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrojig Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Allow me to contribute before I depart. I think no one proposed of cheddites. With .22 rifle it might detonate low or high order, but I'd assume high order based on its sensitivity. Of binary HE mixes these chlorate cheddites are VERY sensitive HE's, that go off from something like 50mg of a blasting cap-which is a VERY tiny initiator. Things that could be tried are: KCLO3/ vaseline --- 90:10 not the most sensitive, but "relatively" safeKCLO3/vaseline/activated charcoal- ---- I wouldn't even care about OB here, just make the mix a little bit positive, say 93:5:2 KCLO3/AN/ NM --- this one I don't know much on, but could be experimented with; once again, the mix should be oxygen positive for best sensitivity. Stay away from sulfur with KCLO3's and other know incompatible sensitizers. Obviously, do a diligent research. This may be straying into the HE realm of discussion...... If you know anything of cheddites, COPAE clearly states that nitroamine's ( nitromethane, etc) are not safe mix's due to extreme sensitivities , this is clearly why a phlegmatizer is used ( to reduce sensitivity ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbobaker Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 What is the composition of roll caps used in old cap guns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrojig Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 If im not mistaken, it is Armstrongs mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countryboy7978 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Roll caps use either Armstrongs mix or Antimony Trisulfide and Chlorate. If you peel the red tissue from the top of the cap you will notice some brands have a rust colored comp and others a blackish comp. Caps usually have some ground glass in the mixture as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essohbe Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 As a fan of these .22 "kickers", I have found that KClO4 is the oxidizer of choice, and it's really helpful to have something relatively coarse in the mix. My personal theory is that this grinding effect initiates deflagration. Try coarse MgAl, even MgAl turnings. +1. I have used KCl04 for my .22lr targets. I simply diaper it with Al and mix maybe 40g of ammonium nitrate for kick if I want. Put them in the tube with some gravel. Only use cardboard. DO NOT ADD SULFUR. Don't be stupid with these people. I saw a guy on youtube doing that and I cringed. It's sensitive enough without sulfur to explode with a .22 round. Alone it's pretty safe. I've even grazed the targets and shot through some loose gravel in them and they didn't deflagrate. In the talk about plasticizing chlorate, for the original poster, a .22lr will not detonate that. You'll need a centerfire rifle. If you want to go cheap and centerfire, mix Na or K chlorate with sugar (3:2). Don't buy tannerite targets that are 4x the cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrojig Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) +1. I have used KCl04 for my .22lr targets. I simply diaper it with Al and mix maybe 40g of ammonium nitrate for kick if I want. Put them in the tube with some gravel. Only use cardboard. DO NOT ADD SULFUR. Don't be stupid with these people. I saw a guy on youtube doing that and I cringed. It's sensitive enough without sulfur to explode with a .22 round. Alone it's pretty safe. I've even grazed the targets and shot through some loose gravel in them and they didn't deflagrate. Are you kidding!!!!..., the talk of using gravel makes me cringe more than that of sulfur in a flash mix.... Simply mixing AN with the flash is a bad idea as well, it is not a good initiator at all. What I hear being claimed is very dangerous....It sounds like you need more time studying. Not to knock at you, but it sounds very knewlish Edited January 23, 2012 by pyrojig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueSwimmer Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I think talking about "exploding targets" you have to go to the realm of HE. Besides, it is legal- you can literally buy ammonal on Ebay.... I proposed chlorates because of their sensitivity, which is the big issue when using a weak rifle. An "incompatibility" of chlorate may be a good thing for a rifle mix- the definition may be very different for military/commercial purposes. If a mix is sensitive to a small caliber rifle, then it is in fact too dangerous for either mining or military. Anyhow, chlorates are very weak compositions, so sensitivity to initiation can be the only upside. I would just recommend Googling around and there are tons of compositions that will work swimmingly. Something like prilled-activated ammonal 90/5 with 5% NM, and using fine dark Eckart could quite well be sensitive enough to a weak rifle. And you will not need much of this mix to be impressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essohbe Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Are you kidding!!!!..., the talk of using gravel makes me cringe more than that of sulfur in a flash mix.... Simply mixing AN with the flash is a bad idea as well, it is not a good initiator at all. What I hear being claimed is very dangerous....It sounds like you need more time studying. Not to knock at you, but it sounds very knewlish Lol. Please settle down, I didn't say that to get anyone riled up. If you have any experience with this you will know it is fine if you respect it and know that you don't detonate NH4NO3 with flashpowder, it simply adds more "umph" during the rapid deflagration. I agree you should still treat any flash as if it were chlorate based. Safety is key and respect what it can do. You need some type of medium like gravel or similar to make it work unless you just want to pack more than is necessary into the tube. Too much is a waste and too little makes it loose and it won't initiate. As I've said, from my own experience, I've shot these with a grazing hit and they didn't go off. You'd have to be grossly negligent to set these off on accident. Something like prilled-activated ammonal 90/5 with 5% NM, and using fine dark Eckart could quite well be sensitive enough to a weak rifle.Could be. I've tried NH4NO3 with dark Al by themselves and the rimfire didn't set it off - one has to factor in the velocity of the bullet and all this involves barrel length and bullet type. Force = Mass x Acceleration. A .22lr pistol, with it's typical short barrel, is not going to have the velocity to do the trick past a certain distance in my experience; However, a typical rifle barrel within so many meters/yds will definitely do it. I have a 18" .920 barrel on my rifle and it usually sets them off. The grazing hits using a rifle on the NH4NO3 + flash however still didn't set those off.As far as bullet types go, I've gotten sub-sonic rounds to set these off within a certain distance but at longer distances gravity takes its effect and they will loose velocity (as any bullet will). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagaKahn Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Wandered off this thread over a year ago; interesting to come back and see how it's evolved (or perhaps devolved?). It was suggested early on that for rimfire targets, the Cu/Al comp could be spiked with straight 70/30 to be certain of explosion. Naturally this works like a mutha--but just wondering (and I'll indent to a new paragraph here for emphasis): What safety procedures do y'all follow when mixing comp for rimfire targets? Any mix that can be set off by nothing more than the impact of a .22 round sounds like it's just waiting for a static accident. Was just reading of one fellow who mixes his 70/30 by shaking it in a plastic container. holy jeezus . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackthumb Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 22 rimfire targets......fold the paper Triangle 'cracker' with 70/30 and 1 part S...works great. Shot about 35 of them a month ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Was just reading of one fellow who mixes his 70/30 by shaking it in a plastic container. holy jeezus . . . If you are not comfortable then please don't make it. I have made several pounds now and while I take precautions, it does not scare me. I just treat it with respect. -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackthumb Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Dag is right...be careful...be SMART!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagaKahn Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 22 rimfire targets......fold the paper Triangle 'cracker' with 70/30 and 1 part S...works great. Other words for a ten-gram batch, that would be 7 grams of perch, 3 grams of Al and .1 (one tenth) gram of S? (Thanx BT, this sounds like fun). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dierm86 Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Finding the required material to make these targets yourself is not very hard. A few years ago ammonium nitrate fertilizer was very common. today, there are strict laws governing the sale of ammonium nitrate fertilizer and is next to impossible to get your hand on unless you find back stock at a nursery or farm. You can us the AN out of instant cold packs but that route is very expensive. The best value i can find on exploding targets is on ebay. H2 Targets offer a 10 lb bulk bag. in my opinion these targets are better than tannerite, sure shot and star targets. here is a link to a video that shows whats in the bulk bags some explosions. this is a van that was completely destroyed by H2 Targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaMtnBkr Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) If it is a AN based exploding target, what is going to make it any more potent than any of the other brands on the market? In my experience, even the type of aluminum has no effect on strength, only on whether it detonates or not. Edit: I also don't think AN is any more hard to get than it was. These companies popping up are buying fertilizer. I can buy it at 3 different local stores, all new stock, with nothing to sign. It's also cheaper than it was a few years ago for some reason. Edited April 13, 2012 by FlaMtnBkr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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