Flash powder safety

[x77]

Assuming you're talking about the static anti-spray, I'd say you'd be better off grounding yourself if you're worried about it. Its as simple as a metal wire and metal clip attached to a pipe or ground wire. If you're in a humid environment its less of an issue though if you're currently in the southern hemisphere or you tend to drag your feet, maybe it would be a good precaution.

 

I meant with the motor / timer setup and mixing it inside of the tube.

[al93535]

If grounding yourself via a connection to ground its advisable to use a resistor. If you are grounded and your composition or anything else has picked up a static charge it will be much more attracted to you!!!

 

A general rule I have heard, and tend to agree with is: "either ground everything, or nothing at all".

 

Anti-static spray is cheap, and it is very effective.... use it.

[thankful]

Virzla,

 

Let me take a page right from Passfire in dealing with the same subject earlier today. This is from Ned Gorski, one of the most respected names in amateur pyrotechnics today:

 

"what is the strongest and safest flash to make

Jeff

 

 

Jeff, sort of like "military intelligence" or "jumbo shrimp", you've come up a somewhat self-contradictory mixture of notions,,an oxymoron.

The "strongest" flash would more than likely be one of the more dangerous to make.

The "safest" flash would more than likely be pretty weak.

 

And, in fact, you've asked about a pyro mixture which is itself a contradiction in terms: flash powder is about the simplest and easiest of fireworks creations, being only a simple dry mixture of chemicals. And flash is about the most powerful and most dangerous of the common fireworks mixtures some of us work with.

More than a few of us still steer clear of working with it, it can make folks so nervous to work with.

Flash powder can ruin your life in an instant.

 

And, you do not need flash powder to dabble creatively in the pyrotechnic arts, although for many of us, salutes and flash powder are some of the first things we are drawn to, and interested in learning about.

 

So, it would be hypocritical of us to 'judge' you for asking your question, but knowing what we know, it would be irresponsible to answer you completely honestly.

 

You've walked up to a bunch of creative fireworks hobbyists, for whom flash is a mildly interesting addition to some pyro devices, but also for whom the more creative and scientific and artistic aspects of this art call our name much louder.

 

You've walked up and asked this group the One question many young, curious, but not very pyro-educated, and perhaps even irresponsible, kids, who are sometimes referred to as Kewl-Bomerz, would ask. It might be one of the first questions many of us would have asked once upon a time, though, so you Might be worth a bit of indulgence.

 

In this group, it would be considered completely irresponsible to answer your question completely honestly, but it might also be irresponsible to send you on your way with a somewhat hypocritical, gruff, rebuff. That might just send you looking somewhere else, only to get into trouble. There's a huge amount of bad info out there on the internet and elsewhere.

 

So here goes. You might consider, if you are truly curious about this fireworks art, strolling up and listening for a bit.. Maybe asking a few curious and respectful qustions. You Might be worth some respectful answers. We don't know that, though, so we'd be careful with you.

 

There is no safe flash powder. If you hear of any formulas which use chlorate, avoid them. If you hear of formulas which have more than two ingredients in a ratio of about 7/3, avoid them. Don't mix anything you don't definitely have some good info on. Don't do anything that someone you respect hasn't OK'd, and coached you on. There are relatively less-dangerous flash powders, and ones which can go off if you rub them the wrong way. There are ways to mix flash which are relatively less dangerous, and ways to mix it which are pretty much guaranteed to risk setting it off.

 

And in the end, flash is about the most powerful, most dangerous, easiest to make, easiest to get into trouble with, most on the edge of the law, most impressive at a gut level, least impressive on an artistic level, stuff in pyro.

 

If this scares you out of here, that's good.

If this invites you in here with the right attitude, good.

Mostly don't do anything you don't really know much about, don't hurt yourself, don't ask us to violate principles which we consider to be very important, and don't cast a bad light on an art which is tough enough to maintain in our society as it is..

 

Maybe more of an answer than you bargained for,,maybe just the one you need.

ned"

 

 

Well as you my name says Im thankful I came across this site. Im a "newby" as you guys call them. I started making m-80 with flash just two weeks ago. My neighbor shot off a couple and I asked him where he got them and he would'nt teel me. So I googled "M-80's" and wow was I surprised at all the info out there, most is crap but there are some saftey minded ones. And as far as Im concerned youtube should be shut down! Too many idiot kids on there with their "How To" videos. I can only imagine how many kids have been injured very badly or even killed for doing something they saw there. I did obtain potassium perchlorate and aluminum and I was surprised how easy it was. I made about 10 of them always mixing small 10g batches at a time. I was scared at first but after making a few I thought well I must be doing it right. Then I found this site and started reading what all you guys were saying about FP. It scared the crap out of me and I immedietly flushed everything I had down the toilet. Im never going to make FP again. This will be my one and only post so I just wanted to say thank you all for probably saving my life!

[handymanherb]

I'm calling Bravo Sierra on the last post

[dagabu]

Thanks for the memories Herb.

 

I had a Lt that had no idea what that meant so while sitting in the middle of Sal Man Pak watching for the Republican Guard to rumble by our site, I whispered to my spotter, Lima, tango, alpha, foxtrot, uniform, charlie, kilo, indigo, November, golf, bravo sierra.

 

The Lt told us to shut up and after we lit up the convoy for the A-6's, he asked me what we we talking about and we told him to tell the CO that it was his new nick name.

 

I did a 48 in the brig for that one.

[Ventsi]

[handymanherb]

OK let see a show of hands, how many people knew how to made flash long before joining here.

 

I seen it many times on you tube, there was one I seen that walked you through making M-80 down to where to buy what from who that won't throw red flags.

 

That one was pulled, but there is still many showing how to make flash!

 

But come on you got to start some where, and starting with making black powder with all the equipment you need to get started, kind of holds you back.

 

So the first thing I made smoke bombs the second was e-matches using flash to fire the 1.4's we use at our family reunion, I fired 24 cakes and only had two matches not fire, that was it was our first time using them and didn't have them just right.

 

I want to start making some shells, I just need to figure out which one's I can build easy and go from there, family says lets get the licence and just buy 1.3's, I still like to make a few good ones to finish up with so I can say HEY I did that!!!

Edited August 8, 2010 by handymanherb

[KuzkinaMat]

Frankly, what you just said is perhaps one of the stupidest things I've heard someone ever do with energetic materials. Perhaps the only person to out beat you is Phone, but he's paid his price.

 

Was Phone the guy they talked about over on ShadowRX who made 2kg of TATP before getting blown away by only 20g of it? Or am I getting him confused with some totse moron?

[Blackthumb]

Some of the best info on using/making flash I have seen......newbies listen and learn from the pros in this forum....best part about working with pyro compounds for many years is to still see, hear and have all your fingers to be able to scratch your own ass.

[xtr55]

after a salute is built and is good to go, how sensitive is it? Is static still a major concern once it has been mixed, put into a casing, and closed up?

[TYRONEEZEKIEL]

after a salute is built and is good to go, how sensitive is it? Is static still a major concern once it has been mixed, put into a casing, and closed up?

 

At that point it is at its highest concern, IMO.

 

When it is closed up it becomes significantly more violent, just as it is intended to. However, carelessness at that point could result in severe injury and damage. Although when it is sealed up, it is protected from the outside environment, save for the fuse.

Edited January 11, 2012 by TYRONEEZEKIEL

[shagaKahn]

Great thread.

 

Several years ago on another list I read a fellow's tip for flash used for salute headers: 14g of perch and 6g of dark Al transported separately to the site in 35mm film canisters.

 

When ready for use, the two comps are poured together (presumably into a third film canister) and mixed by shaking.

 

Always wondered if this was mad as everything I've ever read said no matter how small or large the amount of flash desired, it should only be mixed via the diaper method.

 

20 grams of flash, hand-shaken in an HDPE film canister?

 

Maybe where he lives it's always humid?

[dagabu]

Great thread.

 

Several years ago on another list I read a fellow's tip for flash used for salute headers: 14g of perch and 6g of dark Al transported separately to the site in 35mm film canisters.

 

When ready for use, the two comps are poured together (presumably into a third film canister) and mixed by shaking.

 

Always wondered if this was mad as everything I've ever read said no matter how small or large the amount of flash desired, it should only be mixed via the diaper method.

 

20 grams of flash, hand-shaken in an HDPE film canister?

 

Maybe where he lives it's always humid?

 

There are lots of differing thoughts on this subject, some say that flash is so sensitive that even a slight jar can make it go off all the way to the way Albert K makes it by rubbing it through a screen in #10 lots. If you were to come to PGI for convention this year, you would find that any open flash is strictly prohibited so that means that diapering it is clearly out of the question at any time. If it is so sensitive then why can it survive the violent explosion that shoots it out of the mortar?

 

This fellows tip for mixing flash is called "Binary Mixing" or the "Binary Method" where two separate ingredients are added one at a time to a vessel (at PGI this will be your casing) and then the vessel is closed and is handled normally to be pasted, spiked, wrapped, whatever.

 

I made about 10 binary mixed salutes at PGI in Mason City and were identical to the ones I had made in advance. I couldn't tell any difference in sound.

 

-dag

[NightHawkInLight]

So far I have heard of zero accidents caused by the binary method. That doesn't prove much I guess since accidents are mercifully rare to begin with. At a minimum, I figure you're going to be handling a shell the same way regardless of whether or not you fill it with flash or unmixed components. If you do the latter you are handling mixed flash for a lesser amount of time, reducing your exposure to accident prone situations.

 

Edit: Also, if you're making them for rocket headers, you could get everything assembled and do the shaking while holding onto the end of the stick. That puts at least a little more air between you and the danger zone.

Edited March 16, 2012 by NightHawkInLight

[shagaKahn]

Maybe douse myself and the work area with anti-static spray . . . jeez just the idea of holding 20g of this comp in my hand gives me the creeps.

 

Yet as you say daga, folks do it all the time when they're building shells.

 

Like your idea of saving the mixing till last, NHIL, and doing it out at the end of a stick. Held at arm's length and with my face turned away. In a full bombsquad suit. When I know my insurance is paid up. And not in Death Valley or any other place where the humidity's less than 50%.

[MikeB]

Flash certainly deserves respect. But if you are so freaked out about it that you canot bring yourself to handle it properly then DON'T. Your typical 70-30 mix is not so sensitive that you need only mix a gram at a time in a bomb suit. If you need five or ten pounds for what you are doing, mix that amount and get it done.

[Potassiumchlorate]

EDIT. Edited March 17, 2012 by Potassiumchlorate

[dagabu]

Flash certainly deserves respect. But if you are so freaked out about it that you canot bring yourself to handle it properly then DON'T. Your typical 70-30 mix is not so sensitive that you need only mix a gram at a time in a bomb suit. If you need five or ten pounds for what you are doing, mix that amount and get it done.

 

Absolutely! I mix all I need in one sitting so I don't have to make several batches. If a kilo of F goes off in my hands, I will die, 10g and I will suffer the rest of my life. Like Jon Bon Jovi said' "...in a blaze of glory."

 

-dag

[Potassiumchlorate]

Absolutely! I mix all I need in one sitting so I don't have to make several batches. If a kilo of F goes off in my hands, I will die, 10g and I will suffer the rest of my life. Like Jon Bon Jovi said' "...in a blaze of glory."

 

-dag

 

I agree with you there. I'd rather die than suffer from the results of considerable amounts of flash going off in my hand.

 

By the way: the really dangerous flash is probably the one made with magnesium. The finest German Dark is 5000 mesh or even finer. Still perchlorate flash made with it won't explode unconfined in quantities below 1g at least, whereas 370 mesh magnesium together with potassium perchlorate explodes in quantities of 0.2g or even less.

[shagaKahn]

OK just as a follow up, I've got an HDPE mixing container (a recycled yogurt tub with slanted walls) and I fasten this to the end of an old 6-foot wooden curtain rod. I set it up so when it's mounted to the stick, its motion when the stick is turned will be eccentric, to enhance mixing.

 

Gonna try various amounts of comp (10 to 20 grams, no more!) for exploding targets; do the mixing "by remote" then spray again with anti-static before pouring the comp into small containers for targets.

 

There's an exploding targets thread and I may post a query there about what mixing methods folks use to keep it safe.

 

Thanx for all the thoughtful responses,

s

[319]

OK just as a follow up, I've got an HDPE mixing container (a recycled yogurt tub with slanted walls) and I fasten this to the end of an old 6-foot wooden curtain rod. I set it up so when it's mounted to the stick, its motion when the stick is turned will be eccentric, to enhance mixing.

 

Gonna try various amounts of comp (10 to 20 grams, no more!) for exploding targets; do the mixing "by remote" then spray again with anti-static before pouring the comp into small containers for targets.

 

There's an exploding targets thread and I may post a query there about what mixing methods folks use to keep it safe.

 

Thanx for all the thoughtful responses,

s

 

 

What are you going to do with a comp you won't touch with a 5' POLE?

[Mumbles]

I make no pretenses about how I mix flash, but I also don't particularly like to go spreading the information. I really wasn't comfortable with it until I was shown how to do it. Similarly I would feel uncomfortable with others trying it without necessarily seeing how it's done. That said, I screen all of my flash. Nearly all commercial manufacturers also screen their flash.

 

Static and friction is really the enemy here. I douse myself with anti-static spray before I start anything, and occasionally there after, particularly if I go do anything else. My screens get a similar treatment. Additionally, I only work with it when the humidity in the air is sufficiently high.

 

If you're not comfortable enough with a composition to mix it by hand, whether that be screening, diapering, stirring, whatever, you really shouldn't be making it at all. When I see these ideas for mixing flash on the ends of poles, or in remote mixers on ball mills or whatever, I really have to wonder. You're going to have to handle it by hand at some point. Do you really think it's less susceptible toward going off when being rolled on a piece of paper than when being poured into a container?

[shagaKahn]

Mumbles and 319, you both nailed it: who am I kidding?

 

But from my experience with static and how it accumulates, my logic here is that it's in the motion of the mixing that static builds up in the compound itself (say nothing of what's built up in my body from just walking around).

 

Once the mixing is done and the anti-static spray is re-applied, it seems like I've got a small margin of time before static builds up again to pour into whatever casing or container I'm using.

 

Have watched folks stir up 10-, 20- and even larger-gram batches of 70/30 for shooting with rimfire rounds and so far witnessed no accidents. There's a dangerous tendency to believe therefore that no accidents ever will happen.

[oldguy]

I don’t do “flash”, but thought one of these might help.

 

 

Can be found on eBay CHEAP sometimes.

 

 

[NightHawkInLight]

OG, while I don't know how heavily those ionizers work with static buildup in a room, I very much doubt they reduce them. In fact I have been working on a project that uses the same electronics found in one of those to CREATE static charge. It does a fine job of it too. I wouldn't want flash within 100 yards.

 

If you want to reduce static, a humidifier is the way to go.