Mumbles Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Does anyone have any experience with red nitrate strobes? I'm having trouble finding modern formulas, IE no hexachlorobenzene. There is one formula on passfire I was eyeing up, but no details are given. I have nothing against AP strobes, I just don't have time to treat any coarse Mg. If I can't find anything, I might try making my own by modifying a green nitrate strobe. Worse case scenario, it turns into a red star. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Does anyone have any experience with red nitrate strobes? I'm having trouble finding modern formulas, IE no hexachlorobenzene. There is one formula on passfire I was eyeing up, but no details are given. I have nothing against AP strobes, I just don't have time to treat any coarse Mg. If I can't find anything, I might try making my own by modifying a green nitrate strobe. Worse case scenario, it turns into a red star. How about this? Strontium Nitrate 30 Magnalium, granular, -100 mesh 9.8 Parlon 1.5 Dextrin 0.75 Gum Arabic 0.75 Copper(II) Oxide, black 0.38 Copper(II) Oxychloride 0.38 It works for me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share Posted September 8, 2009 Thats the one from passfire I was eying up. I assume you use it in strobe rockets. Do you have any information on relative burn rate or strobe rate? This is mostly what I was looking for. I didn't want to have 1Hz stars raining to the ground. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Thats the one from passfire I was eying up. I assume you use it in strobe rockets. Do you have any information on relative burn rate or strobe rate? This is mostly what I was looking for. I didn't want to have 1Hz stars raining to the ground. I use it both for rockets and stars. Strobe is mediocre at best, white always beats colors. I use it as the delay in my 3# rockets (1" id) and for stars but the strobe is pretty modest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share Posted September 8, 2009 I'll try adding some -200 mesh MgAl to speed the strobe rate up a bit. Maybe 2 parts out of the 10ish. I'm going to be using this as the inner petal of an 8" shell, so too fast is better than too slow. Do you think 1/4" stars would burn out within 2-3 seconds, or are they slower than that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawkInLight Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 What is the sort of reaction that is typically used to obtain a strobe? I've forgotten, though I know I've seen some information on it around here somewhere. I haven't been interested until recently. I might be able to hunt down a good red strobe tomorrow that would suit your needs. I have several very large composition libraries I can look through. One I suspect from the mid 1900's that I haven't even looked through much because of difficult navigation and compositions loaded full of various unobtainiums. I have a more recent one I'll peek into, but it's likely that the vast majority of those comps are on passfire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 I'll try adding some -200 mesh MgAl to speed the strobe rate up a bit. Maybe 2 parts out of the 10ish. I'm going to be using this as the inner petal of an 8" shell, so too fast is better than too slow. Do you think 1/4" stars would burn out within 2-3 seconds, or are they slower than that? It is going to depend on your nitrate, too much water and the comp slows down. I got a bad batch (thank God it was only a pound) and it was only good for rockets. Go easy on the MgAl, too much and it wont light right but I think 1/4" stars are good for 3" balls and pistils. Hmmm, just shot a small one a little over 1/4" out of my gun and it lit for just under 2 seconds. NO STROBE AT ALL!! Gahhh! Got a bag of them, wanna buy some? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share Posted September 8, 2009 There are two primary, and one kind of archaic forms of strobe. Most are made with AP, Mg, and a Sulfate. The main theory is that the AP reacts with Mg in a dark reaction, and the sulfate reacts in a bright explosion reaction over and over. The other primary type employs barium nitrate, but I guess strontium works too. These are with MgAl. The idea is the same as the first, only the two components being Mg and Al separately, or perhaps the sulfur. It's hard to tell. The third, less often seen form is an organic strobe. There were almost all done with HCB, thought I've seen a few with parlon or other chlorine donors. They seem to have fallen out of favor with the difficulty in obtaining HCB, and the wide availability of the other two forms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawkInLight Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Thanks, I thought I remembered the sulfate/Mg reaction being a part of it. So many experiments I want to do! I guess it's better than to little. I'll be watching this thread. I sure wouldn't mind some strobe stars in one of the multibreaks I'm prepping to build for a shoot in October. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share Posted September 8, 2009 Is there an MPAG shoot in October, or are you headed to the Tri-state? If you're headed to the latter, I might see you there. My problem is that I really don't have time to test, as I can only build on the weekends. I'll let you know how they turn out. I might build a few small batches and use the best in my 8", and save the rest for other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambo Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 I've gathered this info up, although i have forgotten the source unfortunately. Hope this helps.Nitrate_red_strobes.doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
optimus Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) Here's my red strobe: 40 Strontium Nitrate5 Potassium Nitrate21 Magnalium (I used granular <200mesh)6 Chlorowax4 Copper Oxide5 Red Gum18 Sulphur Chlorowax should be fine to substitute. Sorry I don't have further notes at hand, I can provide more details if necessary. They burn well in the air too. Good flash frequency. Edited September 8, 2009 by optimus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneEyeCharlie Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 I'm prepping to build for a shoot in October Lowell's less than an hour from me. Can the public swing by that shoot? I've been mulling joining MPAG for some time now, and it would be the ideal time to chat with some people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawkInLight Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Is there an MPAG shoot in October, or are you headed to the Tri-state? If you're headed to the latter, I might see you there. My problem is that I really don't have time to test, as I can only build on the weekends. I'll let you know how they turn out. I might build a few small batches and use the best in my 8", and save the rest for other things.MPAG is having a shoot. I'll have to look into Tri-state, though I have a feeling it's going to be hard for me to get away for yet another weekend next month. I would love to go. Where's the location? @ Charlie: Yeah the MPAG shoots are open to the public. $5 is asked from all attenders to help cover shoot costs, and there's always a potluck so bring something small for that if you can. The only thing non members cannot do at the shoots is to participate on the firing line. You would be welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share Posted September 8, 2009 October 9th and 10th in Mentone, IN. C'mon, for pyro there is always time. It's actually going to be a bit of a stretch for me, as I very likely will have to skip class friday to go. I'm always late with WPAG shoots, so I'll probably have a few half built shells ready for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawkInLight Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 October 9th and 10th in Mentone, IN. C'mon, for pyro there is always time. It's actually going to be a bit of a stretch for me, as I very likely will have to skip class friday to go. I'm always late with WPAG shoots, so I'll probably have a few half built shells ready for it.Aw I would love to make it. I would also have to skip class on Friday, and work on Saturday...Coupled with a 4.5 hr drive, I doubt I'll be able to. It's going to be hard enough for me to make it out to the MPAG shoot the next Saturday. Oh how I want to though, I'm still depressed about missing the PGI this year. Especially since a MPAG guy won grandmaster...However temporarily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventsi Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 How about this?Strontium Nitrate 30 Magnalium, granular, -100 mesh 9.8 Parlon 1.5 Dextrin 0.75 Gum Arabic 0.75 Copper(II) Oxide, black 0.38 Copper(II) Oxychloride 0.38 It works for me.... Here's my red strobe:40 Strontium Nitrate5 Potassium Nitrate21 Magnalium (I used granular <200mesh)6 Chlorowax4 Copper Oxide5 Red Gum18 Sulphur What role does the Copper Oxide play in these? Also what are they normally bound with? Can the Chlorowax/Parlon be subbed with PVC or Saran resin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 What role does the Copper Oxide play in these? Also what are they normally bound with? Can the Chlorowax/Parlon be subbed with PVC or Saran resin? in Strobes and glitters I have formulated i have always added it as a flash phase oxidiser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventsi Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 Ahh, but doesn't it distort the color to white? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted March 16, 2010 Author Share Posted March 16, 2010 Copper Oxide likely acts as a catalyst, though it has some unexplained uses in some strobe-like compositions. Dragon eggs, and some very strobe-y glitters for instance. The first formula is bound with water (hence the dex and GA). The second, I assumed it was bound with NC lacquer or alcohol. You'd have to ask him personally about the second though. Honestly, this may be one of the few situations where the chlorine donors can not be switched. Saran almost certainly would turn it into a constant burning mix. It is clean burning, and we want to slag this up as much as we can, which is thought to be the cause behind strobes. PVC is said to be the worst fuel of the common 3 (saran, PVC, and parlon), but I just don't believe that. I feel like parlon is the slowest and poorest burning one of the three. Hence the heavier use of parlon over PVC and saran in some blues and purples. I've heard and seen known mixes using parlon, HCB, and chlorowax being used for these type of strobes. I'd imagine dechlorane could also do the trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goofy Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 (edited) Copper Oxide likely acts as a catalyst, though it has some unexplained uses in some strobe-like compositions. Dragon eggs, and some very strobe-y glitters for instance. The first formula is bound with water (hence the dex and GA). The second, I assumed it was bound with NC lacquer or alcohol. You'd have to ask him personally about the second though. Honestly, this may be one of the few situations where the chlorine donors can not be switched. Saran almost certainly would turn it into a constant burning mix. It is clean burning, and we want to slag this up as much as we can, which is thought to be the cause behind strobes. PVC is said to be the worst fuel of the common 3 (saran, PVC, and parlon), but I just don't believe that. I feel like parlon is the slowest and poorest burning one of the three. Hence the heavier use of parlon over PVC and saran in some blues and purples. I've heard and seen known mixes using parlon, HCB, and chlorowax being used for these type of strobes. I'd imagine dechlorane could also do the trick. Mumbles, Have you tried these? They do tend to have a shimmering quality but aren't too bad for a non-AP comp. It's a modification of the common Ba(NO3)2 / KNO3 white formula (listed last). RED Sr(NO3)2 54Sulfur 20 Mg/Al 60mesh 12 Dextrin 5Parlon 10 GREEN Ba(NO3)2 54Sulfur 20Mg/Al 60mesh 12Dextrin 5Parlon 10 WHITE Ba(NO3)2 51Sulfur 19Mg/Al 60mesh 12Mg/Al 200mesh 6KNO3 7Dextrin 5 Notes: Adjust Mg/Al particle size and ratio(s) to tweek flash rate. Edited March 17, 2010 by Goofy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted March 18, 2010 Author Share Posted March 18, 2010 I haven't gotten a chance to try any of them yet unfortunately. All in good time. I ran behind in my production schedule for my shoots last fall (big surprise). It is on my list for this year, along with a plethora of big shells. Blue strobes as well, which I also have some ideas about. There are a few different types of formulas posted in this thread. I plan to try a selection of each and find which one I like the most. Strobe rate and color are more important to me than strobe consistency. Also, if I can somehow tune it for -200 mesh MgAl, it would be an added bonus. I have a limited amount of 60 and 100 mesh unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordohigh Posted March 19, 2010 Share Posted March 19, 2010 Mumbles, I'm following this thread too, hoping to gain some smarts on the strobe effect. I have all the chems for the above comps and am already thinking about my daughters 4th of July party. I am anxious to see what you end up using. If you want to make up some coarse magnalium, I have a couple pounds of nuggets and could send you a few ounces to break up if you like, let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted March 19, 2010 Author Share Posted March 19, 2010 I have a good feeling about optimus' formula. Firstly it's already based on -200 mesh MgAl so it's a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned. I have a few tricks up my sleeve, so I'll keep you guys posted. I will warn you in advance, I am leaning toward using chlorowax, but I will experiment with Parlon and maybe PVC too. Something about chlorowax is calling out to me for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xetap Posted March 19, 2010 Share Posted March 19, 2010 PVC is said to be the worst fuel of the common 3 (saran, PVC, and parlon), but I just don't believe that. I feel like parlon is the slowest and poorest burning one of the three.In my experience, parlon is a 'better' fuel than PVC, by a fairly good margin. For whatever reason, using the two together is a real "slaggy" mess. But if that's what is wanted, it might be worth a look... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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