Stinger Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 Hi Does anyone here have got experience with a rocketfuel consisting out of potassiumperchlorate and epoxy-resin? I would like to use it as a (powerfull?) propellant for rockets. The measurements will be: 12mm ID tube3mm thick walled7cm long Noozle out of clay. What about a few mixing ratios? Greets, Stinger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSidewinder Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 My experience with resin-bound propellants is all with Ammonium Perchlorate, often abbreviated APCP (Ammonium Perchlorate Composite Propellant), and very little experience at that. I've never used a KP formula, and don't recall seeing any. But that could be, simply because I wasn't looking for any. As to nozzles, clay won't work. These fuels burn much hotter, and at higher pressure, than pyrotechnic rockets using Black Powder-based propellants. Remember that the propellants we're talking about here are used by the "big boys" in High Power Rocketry. And it's an APCP variant that's used in the Space Shuttle's SRB's (the Solid Rocket Boosters). That said, they CAN be used in much smaller motors, and one person in our Guild (WPAG) makes a rocket using (get this!) an empty shotgun shell that's been deprimed. He "pours" his propellant into the shell, adding the right amount, and allowing for expansion/contraction of his formula. When it's cured, he just crimps it shut as though it were loaded with powder/wad/shot. Attach a stick properly, and voila! I saw him fire these off last year, and I was amazed at how well they flew. Go to the search feature, use APCP as a keyword, and read the resulting 7 threads. There's at least some relevant info in them. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iclazion Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Richard Nakka's website: "http://www.nakka-rocketry.net/rnx_int.html" Don't think i have to say much as all the information regarding epoxy based engines will be up there. Hope this is what you where looking for have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSidewinder Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Nakka's site is a very good source of info, but the page you referenced specifically talks about Potassium Nitrate-bound composites, whereas he asked about Potassium Perchlorate formulas. I took a quick look at that page, and the site index, and found nothing on APCP or PPCP formulas. The only 2 reference I could find was on a page for machining *nozzles* which can withstand the pressures and heat these propellants create, and another page that references it against KNO3-Sugar formulas. That said, I've never tried KNO3-Epoxy propellant, but I've bookmarked the page in case I ever want to try it. It looks like a very simple formula: KNO3, Fe2O3, and whatever resin you choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iclazion Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Also being part of South Africa's rocketry club, i have learn't and spoke to one guy who got a license to produce and sell rocketry engines that was made with the same recipe used on "Nakka's" website. Any how, i have seen these resin type rockets reach insane heights.The only problem here in South Africa is: You are not allowed to take the engine back home. With that said one is only allow to shoot your rocket at an event "No fun in that" So i have spoken to a person who has successfully Launched a 2,3M rocket with an engine with the following diameter "OD-120mm ID-50mm" and i will try and get all the details and then take a few photos and add it to the tutorial section. As far as perc concerned i haven't seen or heard about resin/epoxy being used so far. But i am not to sure if perc might react to certain types or resins/epoxies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ActionTekJackson Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 I did some experimenting with this a while back, and while I still think its quite possible, the usual result is KP can be used in formulas usually calling for AP, however, to acheive the same result as AP would give, the ratio's change. You need more KP for the amount of Fuel than you do with AP. This causes an issue with there not being enough resin or bonding agent to hold the cast together very strongly. Im still convinced there's a way to do it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 If there is not enough epoxy for the fuel to be casted straight away, loading it into tubes with some pressure from a press should help to consolidate it properly. This probably removes some of the initial favorable properties that gave interest at first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSidewinder Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 OK, this thread has made me vow to do make some APCP motors this Summer, lol... Last season, and maybe 2 seasons ago, someone in the WPAG test-fired an APCP rocket motor in the 50-pound(?) range at a meet. The noise and exhaust plume were amazing. To answer your question, iclazion: "But i am not to sure if perc might react to certain types or resins/epoxies? " That's partly correct. Some of the resins *ARE* fairly acidic. But it isn't the perc it's reacting with, it's the other ingredients. I can't remember off the top of my head which is which, but I have both PBAN and HTPB. Both came with kits I bought from Firefox. One kit makes Composite Smoke, the other makes APCP for rocket motors. Several formulas for each are included. SOME of those formulas require that you neutralize the mix, use a SPECIFIC resin, or restrict which *METALS* you can add to make the mix "hotter". IIRC, if you choose to use Aluminum powder you then you have to use certain resins. Using the wrong one can result in spontaneous ignition, much like certain pyro comps. Several folks here know more, I'm sure, and I hoep one of them will chime in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 Hi I have seen a few examples at youtube from composite propellants, they can lift heavy headers to inasne heights. But I think I am not allowed to post this example-video, because the header contains 500g flashpowder .60g of propellant was used for this rocket. Stinger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 I don't care if you post the videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger Posted January 15, 2008 Author Share Posted January 15, 2008 Hi Sorry if this is a bit kewlish, but here are the videos: http://youtube.com/watch?v=qjN7JNYw9MQ http://youtube.com/watch?v=_VGSukO9aI0&feature=related My personal opinion of these videos is that this gu is very sick and he doesn´t know what he is doing.Anyway, these rocket-motors are awesome. It looks like it is a KClO4/Charcoal propellant, because of the tail. But it is APCP Stinger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwezxc12 Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Stinger, Please don't take this as a flame, but was there a point to posting those videos? You may say that they are APCP, but the person who put them up on Youtube said he used "commercial engines" and didn't know what propellant was used in them. He said that they "looked and smelled"? like APCP...hmmm.Estes DO NOT use AP/composite, and I don't know what other OTC rocket motor someone could buy "at Walmart"...unless he's totally bulshitting everyone. Youtube video comments:tittytwister5251 (1 week ago) Show Hide Marked as spam 0 Reply cool! what do you use to power it up there? ss mix? thats one awesome rocket stoffel123 (1 week ago) Show Hide Marked as spam Reply i used commercial engines, dunno what theyre filled with but from the look and smell of it i guess its some kind of AP composite fuel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ActionTekJackson Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 If there is not enough epoxy for the fuel to be casted straight away, loading it into tubes with some pressure from a press should help to consolidate it properly. This probably removes some of the initial favorable properties that gave interest at first.I think you're absolutely correct, unfortunately I didn't and still don't have the tools to do this properly. All I really have is a 1lb BP tooling set. my press is a home made joke. So if I want to get this right I'm going to have to get the right stuff, looks like PVC engine might be the way to go, and I'll just have to go down to Harbor freight and buy a press. It'd be fine to simply drill out the core with a drill press right? As opposed to press forming it? On a side note, the compositions I did have worked amazing once fully dry, these were hammer pressed however and that simply didn't cut it, so the grains always broke mid burn. Let me know if you want that formula and I'll try and wrangle that up again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
durfeedog Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Try Cannon Fuse.com they have a lot of rocket fuel info under therepyro info tab.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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