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Wheat Paste Tubes - Bake them to harden?


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#1 usapyro

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 01:35 AM

Wondering if anyone had tips on how to get wheat paste to maximum hardness. I am going to take a shot at rolling some tubes with wheat paste tomorrow. (Well, today, but after I sleep.)

 

I was reading that you can bake or heat your tubes to harden them further. Kinda like baking bread? *Confused*

 

Also, I currently have High Gluten Flour, White Flour, and All Purpose Flour. I'm thinking the High Gluten Flour would be best?

 

Edit: After a little more research, it looks like this step would need to be done after the tubes are at least halfway dried to prevent fast drying causing your tubes to warp. I found Elmers works great for rolling today, but I don't like what I'm reading about the heat weakening issues with Elmers and Wood Glues... Especially with long burn time end-burners!


Edited by usapyro, 18 June 2017 - 02:13 AM.

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#2 NeighborJ

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 03:44 PM

USA, the best glue I've found for rolling tubes has been Elmer's wood glue Max. Hardness is not always the best solution for tubes, they'll crack the inner turns of paper during pressing or ramming. The solution for maximum flame resistance is to use high quality thick paper.

I use virgin paper and never exceeded 10 turns, if I do the tube tends to have all kinds of issues such as worping, delamination,wraping off coarse and soft tubes. The best workaround is to use thicker paper, similar to oaktag or manilla folders. This stuff is hard to find and expensive but will make tubes to rival or even surpass the quality of NEPT.

Anyone who rolls their own tubes has their own process and stubbornly stands by it so there are many teqniques but they all eventually find that tubes need to use high quality paper and there is no gluing procedure which can compensate for inadequate materials.

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#3 usapyro

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 10:23 PM

USA, the best glue I've found for rolling tubes has been Elmer's wood glue Max. Hardness is not always the best solution for tubes, they'll crack the inner turns of paper during pressing or ramming. The solution for maximum flame resistance is to use high quality thick paper.

I use virgin paper and never exceeded 10 turns, if I do the tube tends to have all kinds of issues such as worping, delamination,wraping off coarse and soft tubes. The best workaround is to use thicker paper, similar to oaktag or manilla folders. This stuff is hard to find and expensive but will make tubes to rival or even surpass the quality of NEPT.

Anyone who rolls their own tubes has their own process and stubbornly stands by it so there are many teqniques but they all eventually find that tubes need to use high quality paper and there is no gluing procedure which can compensate for inadequate materials.

Jason

 

I have been using Elmers Glue-All so far, and it works amazingly. Tubes are ready after a few hours in the food dehydrator.

 

I was thinking about the brittleness aspect. The Slight flex in the Elmers helps the inner layers flex out a little when ramming tubes.

 

Did not get around to trying wheat paste yet. Maybe it's better for "Pressed" rockets.


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#4 NeighborJ

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 04:25 AM

I'm not knocking wheat paste, the wood glue just suits my process better. The paste required that a coating be spread over the entire sheet prior to rolling. The Elmer's needed only be applied as a line along the rolled crease and then rolled out with pressure. No drying time is required with the thick paper before use because the % of moisture left from the glue slick is so tiny.

A small amount of moisture is beneficial in any tube. 3-15% moisture will help a paper stretch to the load but usually anything over 6-8% starts breaking down the glues. 0% moisture causes the paper to become brittle. So the best is 3-5%.

Jason

Edited by NeighborJ, 19 June 2017 - 04:27 AM.


#5 usapyro

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 12:08 PM

Here are my Elmers Glue-All rolled tubes.

 


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#6 dagabu

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 05:48 PM

You can use pre-glued sheets too. Apply 50/50 white glue and water to the paper and let it dry, dampen right before rolling and it seems to dry faster, the tubes dont warp and are rock hard. my $0.02...


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#7 insutama

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 04:28 AM

Here are my Elmers Glue-All rolled tubes.
 
https://youtu.be/GhJHegoiG00


When rolling your tubes do you use watered down wood glue or just a single line of glue every few wraps ?

You can use pre-glued sheets too. Apply 50/50 white glue and water to the paper and let it dry, dampen right before rolling and it seems to dry faster, the tubes dont warp and are rock hard. my $0.02...


Would wood glue work for this or only white glue?

#8 OldMarine

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 03:06 PM

Titebond II wood glue works but the Gorilla wood glue foams up and is useless for rolling tubes. Ask me how I know!


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#9 Sparx88

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 11:18 PM

I have been using tight bond original with wheat paste. Tried others and this is the go to for me. Make wheat paste like normal, no lumps, and add 30% tight bond original. Since I always end up with more glue than needed adding 3% boric acid gives it a longer shelf life. I use this for rockets, inserts, and shell pasting both ball and can (spiking, end disc etc). I have used up to 70% tight bond to 30 wheat paste when I roll small mortar tubes up to 1.5". Thats all I have to share on this.


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#10 insutama

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 12:19 AM

What lb of kraft are you using ? And how many wraps for a mortar tube

#11 Baldor

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 01:51 AM

What about wallpaper glue? I remember using it in place of wheat paste as a kid, and it´s dirt cheap.


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#12 dagabu

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 08:10 AM

Have you seen the prices at a store for wallpaper paste?  :o


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#13 Baldor

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 08:58 AM

About 5€ for 250g, enough for 40m2 or more, (You will use a lot less per surface unit making tubes than gluing to the wall). cheaper if you buy larger quantities. It's more expensive than wheat of course, but also seems simpler to prepare. Another comparison test to make in the holidays.



#14 lloyd

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 09:20 AM

Most 'wallpaper pastes' are 'wheat paste'.  Some have vinyl glues added, some have acrylic glues added, but almost all are wheat-paste, with-or-without additives to improve adhesion.

 

'Plain' wallpaper paste is just (and only) heat-converted wheat paste, and is cheap... only slightly more-expensive than plain wheat flour.  And it's perfectly-suited to paper-gluing in fireworks.

 

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#15 OldMarine

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 10:13 AM

I don't know what my wallpaper paste is made of since I got a qt from my aunt in a plain tub from one of the 5 gallon bucket she uses. It seems slicker and less tacky than the wheat paste I've made. I'm going to add the Titebond into it and see if it works better for me. I need to make some 1¼" tubes for a cake  so it will be a good opportunity to test it out. Who would have thought that something as plain as paste could be so involved?


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#16 dagabu

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 02:15 PM

I could really use some help with this one Lloyd, I can find wheat flour for less than a dollar a pound but the cheapest dry wallpaper paste, meaning wheat-based I have found is Golden Harvest at $7 for six oz. Where on Earth are you finding it for less than a dollar a pound?
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#17 lloyd

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 02:27 PM

Not LESS than the price of wheat flour, but accordingly inexpensive, Dave.  To make paste from flour takes additional processing, for which they need to recoup expenses.

 

We buy 25lb bags of ordinary wheat paste for about double the current price for ordinary wheat flour.  Yeah... that's not 'slightly' more expensive (shouldn't have used that adjective), but a lot cheaper than the 1lb bag price for Golden Harvest.

 

Of course, your alternative would be to buy that 'cheap' wheat flour, and do the oven-conversion yourself! It's easy to do, but takes a while, smells-up the kitchen some, and might not be worth the trouble.  The process is similar to making dextrin from corn starch.  Or, you can use the 'boiled' process.  Mike S has documented that.  But then the paste must be used fairly soon after it's made.

 

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Edited by lloyd, 09 July 2017 - 02:28 PM.

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#18 dagabu

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 02:40 PM

Lloyd, are you willing to share the purchase info on those 25 lb bags?


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#19 lloyd

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 03:15 PM

Dave,

I'll look and see if I have records on it.  I haven't been with the firm for seven years, and didn't take all the proprietary stuff with me.

 

They might be willing to share, too.  It wouldn't harm their business to let amateurs buy from the same source.  If I don't have the information, I'll ask them.

 

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#20 Mumbles

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 03:34 PM

I'd be interested in any sources Lloyd is willing to provide too.

 

PyroSupplies has wheat paste for about $2.50/lb in 24lb packages.  Certainly cheaper than Golden Harvest.  If you look around, you can find 3lb tubs of Golden Harvest for around $7/lb.  Not cheap, but better than what you quoted.  Playbox from Dick Blick is also pretty cheap (~$3/lb), but sorta gritty.  Not as nice as GH, but you can live with it.

 

http://pyrosupplies....f7ceb94473.html

 

The other relatively inexpensive source I know of is Talas Online.  About $3/lb at 10lb and a little over $2/lb if you want 50lbs.  It's some of the nicest wheat paste I've ever used actually.

 

http://www.talasonli...matrix_weight=7  


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