What classifies as a "Destructive Device" under US/TX law?

[OrionSpectre]

I'm curious, are there any guidelines for things such as how much of what pyrotechnic material is allowed in a device, must a device be under/over a certain size, must it be a certain color, what the casing should be comprised of, how much explosive for every volume, those kinds of things. Basically, how much black powder can I jam into a paper cylinder before your friendly neighborhood SWAT team arrives to inform you that you have exceeded the maximum amount of freedom allowed in a canister and that it has now gone from "firecracker" to "pipe bomb"? What is the legal limit of freedom in a canister?

[lloyd]

Orion,

Unless you're licensed or have VERY understanding local officials, anything you make with ANY explosive content (even unit grams) CAN constitute a "destructive device". If it's explosive, and not legal, it's their call.

 

I participated as an expert witness for the defense in a local case where a teen made a five or six gram BP firecracker, and was charged with manufacturing a destructive device -- and he never even set it off!

 

I had a friend who was a high-school chemistry teacher who was charged with contributing to making 'destructive devices', because two of his honors-class students made a BP, paper-walled 'bomb' and set it off in a remote field, without damage to anything. But they got caught doing it, and when questioned, blamed their chemistry teacher for "teaching them how to make bombs". He lost his 20+year career in teaching over it, without regard to the fact that he never made any such device in their presence.

 

It has to do more with the ignorance of juries and the attitude by LEOs that they are the ONLY people on the planet entitled to handle such materials. But nonetheless, the condition exists.

 

Lloyd

[calebkessinger]

I would NEVER tell any enforcement that i'm making fireworks. ( as a general rule)

I've had plenty of them here for making noise even though our state, and county don't have any noise ordinances.

I pointed at my cannon sitting in the yard. told them we were shooting tannerite. ( both were true many times)

 

I've since calmed down quite a bit and it behooves us to go gentle on the neighbors. One oops and a guy can be facing years of jail time and tens of thousands of fines.

 

All that being said.. You have no legal obligation to tell any person that shows up at your house anything. The best you can do is raise red flags and the worst you will do is convict yourself. Be quite, and be safe is the best practice.

[pyroman2498]

I've had law enforcement at the house too many times to count..best advice is what was said above. I've been told I would be facing WOMD charges , that the ATF was going to seas our house and I was gonna face 20-40 years in prison...

I'm still here talking and even better I have police who live right next to me and I get no hard time. Just don't make a scene for your self and keep the booms to a minimum. Take brakes and don't leave evidence out in your yard to give them probable cause to search your property.

 

Stay Safe and Stay Green

 

~Steven

[OrionSpectre]

I was somewhat under the impression that it's best to remain completely open as opposed to secretive.

[OldMarine]

I'm honest to a point with my neighbors and silent with the law. It's their job to find things out not my job to help them.

[lloyd]

The 'open' posture is best taken when one has a license or permit in hand.

 

I am completely forthright with ATF and my local people, even (fairly frequently) calling them for advice, when I have questions about legality I can't readily answer.

 

But I'm licensed. In that mode, they actually appreciate the calls. If I were (otherwise legally) operating without a license, I think such communications might raise - and actively wig-wag - a lot of red flags I would rather not be seen.

 

Keep in mind that ATF has no restrictions against your making effects without a license, so long as:

1) You are in FULL compliance with all local regulations and ordinances,

2) You do not transport the explosive devices off your own property. You may not transport ANY explosives without a license.

3) You do not sell or otherwise convey any product you make to any non-licensed individual.

 

Lloyd

[OrionSpectre]

Well, I'm a little scared to ask this, but how does one acquire such license and at what cost? Is it a general DD license?

[OrionSpectre]

Also, to clarify, my place of residence is, I believe, outside of any city limits, inside of a small community of houses, the owners of which I believe are fairly tolerant of tiny explosions, seeing as how I could hear fireworks for around two weeks to a month after Independence day, and I think one of them has an indoor firing range, occasionally I'll hear muffled pops.

[OldMarine]

Look up the ATF "Orange Book". It has all the info on the federal license. If your state law is anything like that of Tn? Good luck finding anything in English there!

[OrionSpectre]

My state is Texas, thankfully, we love booms. Also, I checked the ATF website and could not not find a cost for the FEL (which I assume is the correct one). It has a description of the application process and the involved documentation, but never mentioned a cost.

[lloyd]

The Orange Book's last publication date is (I believe) 2012. That's the most-recent copy I have on file.

 

Be clear on this... WHERE you live is important, but what the rules are (local/county ordinances, the Fire Marshal's opinion, etc.) are far more important.

 

That you live in a rural area is good. In order to have a manufacturing license, you'll need enough land to establish safe setbacks from dwellings, public roads, etc. Understand that your distance to property lines is not so important as distances to those features. I've lived on land where my magazine was placed right AT the property line, but it had adequate distances to everything.

 

The Federal licenses are neither expensive nor difficult to obtain, but you must understand all the issues first. In that endeavor, your first 'stop' should be at the front cover of the Orange Book. After you're familiar with what's in there, ask questions. We'll gladly tell you anything we know.

 

Lloyd

[lloyd]

PS... the current cost for a NEW license is (IIRC) about $200, with a $100 renewal fee every three years.

 

LS

[OrionSpectre]

Well, I wasn't going to be able to get one anyway, considering my age. So anything I (with supervision of course) should be cleared with my neighbors, legally should be kept off the books, I assume?

[lloyd]

If you do not have a license, you're not required to keep 'logs', but you ARE required to make and store things legally, in terms of having a magazine for any explosive goods, and maintaining the required setbacks (in the Orange Book) for mixing, storage, etc.

 

You need to check your local and county ordinances. Make sure it's legal there, too. If so, proceed.

 

Lloyd

[Mumbles]

There appears to the a Texas manufacturing license as well. $1250 a year.

 

http://www.tdi.texas.gov/forms/sfmfireindustry/SF238fwksguide.pdf

 

This is the second general question about this in the last week or so. For those unaware, the American Pyrotechnics Association hosts a synopsis of state laws here: http://www.americanpyro.com/state-law-directory I wouldn't take it as gospel as I'm unsure how well it's updated, but it's a good first stop.

[OrionSpectre]

Well, that puts the very final nail in the coffin, whilst I may reside in the state of Texas, I will not ever be able to legally produce- hold on, does that license only cover sale of products made by a person or business?

[lloyd]

Good question, Orion. IF I recall correctly, that's a necessary certificate just in order to MAKE the stuff, whether you sell it, or not.

 

But ask a Texan hobbyist. I'm not an authority (except, in a limited way on the Orange Book, because I make my living that way).

 

I know some Texans who operate without one... but you'd have to ask them about it.

 

Lloyd

Edited April 7, 2017 by lloyd

[OrionSpectre]

Thank you, Lloyd.

[OldMarine]

I'd never give anyone advice because I'm a 53 year old single guy with no debts, a grown child and a life insurance policy for my granddaughter. That tends to give me a little more latitude in how I choose to interpret/ obey the laws and regulations.

All that said, I HAVE tried my best to conform to the regs and always observe the safety rules and have done my best to act in a manner that would be expected from me if I could obtain legal status in my locality and more important, not bring shame or undue attention upon this noble art.

[Boophoenix]

Orion, you might wanna check out the Fire Ants I bet you could get plenty of useful local information from them.

 

http://fireants.org

[DesertCatUSN]

Lloyd,

 

You mentioned special storage for explosive devices. Is there a special storage requirement, other than common sense, for the components themselves separately? As in, do substances that could be combined to make explosives have to be stored far apart to avoid an appearance of 'explosives.' As to a license, you mentioned that location is important, like what's around where you store explosive devices. Can you get a license to use explosives elsewhere instead? if the components are mixed on site, like for mining purposes, the components aren't explosives, but when combined they are, similar to tannerite. Is there a license for something like that, to avoid problems if you are mining? You seem to be very knowledgeable on this, whereas trying to read the legalese in the Orange Book is actually painful, and I end up less enlightened than when I started.

 

Finally, is there a specific insurance carrier, legal group, that one would subscribe to, when having a license/permit? I only ask this because the NRA started Carry Guard to protect gun owners who must use their weapon in self defense, but still face legal nightmares from anti-gun district attorneys, and parasitic lawyers that will represent a criminal decedent's family to sue for wrongful death, even though the gun owner was only trying to defend themselves and/or their family. Sorry, got off track. But I'm sure legal permitees face similar problems from the unappreciative. Appreciate your assistance as always. Roger

[lloyd]

Roger,

 

Chemicals must be stored 'apart' from mixing operations... but in my experience, even 30 feet is sufficient -- just so long as they are not IN the mixing facility. (in bulk. OF COURSE you must have some chemicals in there, or you couldn't MIX! <grin>

 

Oxidizers and fuels must be stored 'separately'. Again... all we did was store drums of oxidizers on one side of our storage building, and separate the drums of oxidizers from other substances that might be fuels by about five feet, and it was always acceptable. They just don't want the containers adjacent to one-another.

 

'Binary' explosives are NOT explosives until mixed. There are no ATF regulations on them, but CPSC usually has something to say about such products, if sold to consumers.

 

ATF does not require that you have insurance. There are a few carriers in the US who cater to pyro manufacturers, but they're horribly expensive! If you aren't a professional manufacturer (selling your goods), then it's up to you. If you are a professional, I encourage you to seek out insurance.

 

Lloyd

Edited June 23, 2017 by lloyd

[DesertCatUSN]

Thank you Lloyd!

[rogeryermaw]

seems that federally at least, it's pretty straight forward but every local organization seems to have widely varied ideas. wanna put a shell up of your own making? better ask an attorney if it's ok. and get a second opinion! i have searched for laws in Arkansas concerning hobbyist pyrotechnics and it feels almost like they don't want that information to be too easy to access. the state license to manufacture and sell is only $1000 here but basic information is hard to come by.

 

all i know for certain is that i live way outside city limits and i can fire 365 day a year as long as i quiet down after 10 pm...we can even shoot firearms unmolested.