rocket fuel

[abdelrahmanamr]

I wanted to make a small rocket , so i watched some videos on youtube and the easiest one was the sugar rocket ( KNO3 and sucrose) but problem is almost every oxidant is very hard to obtain in my country because of security issues, so i am now trying to get my fuel from fireworks ( i will take the black powder used in as the charge in fireworks) and then i found out that a signal flare (which i can get) contains KNO3, aluminum or magnesium and some kind of binder and a coloring agent, which is a lot like composite propellants, if i get some and get whatever is inside and use it as my fuel, will it work??

[OldMarine]

It will probably explode. Real black powder is rarely used in commercial fireworks anymore.

[lloyd]

Patrick? Really? I'm missing something, or you were trying to be funny -- right?

Lloyd

[OldMarine]

Everything I've dissected lately has been a perchlorate type powder. I could be wrong but from what I've played around with I'd have to say it's not black powder.

I'll admit I've only autopsied and dissected a couple of brands but that's my observation. My BP is probably mediocre in quality and I've had CATOs. This stuff is way faster so I think it would pop.

 

Edit: Surefire and Excalibur are the only brands I've dissected and they launch and burst hard for consumer devices.

Edited April 29, 2016 by OldMarine

[OldMarine]

The only test agent I have available to detect perchlorate is methylene blue. I'll make a solutions of burst and lift charges in distilled water and test them on microscope slides.

I could be wrong and I'll admit it but I'll have fun either way!

[schroedinger]

Abbel thats just a waste of money. If your country uses black powder firecrackers, use they cheap variety of them. They contain a weak black powder which can directly be used as rocket fuel (in this bp you can see charcoal fibres). If they use high quality bp, you can use it for noselless rockets. If Flash powder is used, forget about it.

Maybe you can tell us which brand of firecrackers you got.

 

An other way would be to buy sulfuric acid (if you can get pure 98%, but normal 33% for car batteires works too). Mix it with fertilizer that has a high nitrate concentration and distill of the nitric acid. Then use pottasium carbonate or hydroxide to produce nitrate.

[lloyd]

Patrick,

"Commercial Fireworks" covers an awful lot of ground.

 

I can assure you that EVERY commercial firework made by Santore (except for Mylar airbursts and concussion powder) have black powder as a major component.

 

Almost all 1.3G aerial shells have a heavy preponderance of BP in their ingredients.

 

I have quite a bit of 1.4G consumer goods; Although there is a leaning toward 'enhancing' the lift and burst with perchlorates, there's also a lot of BP in them.

BP is still the 'flour' in the pyro breadmaker's art. The other materials are 'spices'.

 

Lloyd

Edited April 29, 2016 by lloyd

[OldMarine]

Lloyd, I should have said consumer fireworks rather than commercial. I opened one last night and both lift and burst were coated on what looked like coarse sawdust?? I'll test them this evening.

[lloyd]

Patrick,

Just to be clear, the presence of perchlorate does not rule out the presence of nitrate-based black powder, also. They often use both in one item just as we do.

 

We 'boost' BP burst -- why shouldn't they?

 

Sawdust, rice hulls, animal feed, animal droppings... eh... just something to coat the powder on!

 

LLoyd

[OldMarine]

Regardless of composition, the fact it's coated on something makes it useless for rockets.

Oh well.

Edited April 29, 2016 by OldMarine

[abdelrahmanamr]

@OldMarine the perchlorate is a much stronger oxidizer thts why they use it more

@shroedinger it's even very hard to get nitric acid...if i got it I can make urea nitrates directly (but it's hard to control this because it's very exothermic) in general the "nitrates" are forbidden because of all the terrorists and ganks.

@lloyd I have a lot of AK100 silver salutes but I think thats powder.

The fireworks I am talking about are the one with the shells out like the one made in this video " https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk9JEfXBC5I " and the powder I am talking about is like the powder he is adding in 3:40 it's use as a charge so I don't think flashpowder can be used for the that and the cheapest thing they can use is Black powder which can and was used as propellant but it's weak (even weaker than the sugar fuel) but it's good enough.

What about the signal flare.. It contains what seems to composite fuel with colouring agent

[FlaMtnBkr]

I would forget the idea if you can't get the correct materials. You won't know exactly what you are working with an you will likely either end up with an upside down gerb/fountain or a b°mb on a stick. That's assuming you don't have an accident while taking things apart and putting them back together.

 

I would be surprised if nitrate is impossible to get since fertilizer is fairly important to farmers and the food supply. I would also think most war torn countries are going to be using some type of surplus military munitions. Good BP isn't the easiest thing to make and I can't imagine a terrorist putting the effort into making BP which is still going to be a comparatively weak explosive. But that's all a guess. Are you sure it's not available somewhere or have you just not found it? When I first started I thought just about everything was impossible to find locally. But I have since found quite a bit with a bit of searching.

 

Mind sharing which country you're located?

 

Edit: typo

Edited April 30, 2016 by FlaMtnBkr

[abdelrahmanamr]

Not at all, I live in Egypt, we have people arrested because they are have some resistors and LEDs and the police thought it was a bomb and the fertilizers are bought with special IDs, I was asking our chemistry lab technician, he was like " even I can't some "

So yea, it's hard.

[MadMat]

Believe it or not, you can extract potassium nitrate from urine. Urine contains urea and ammonia, which, after being broken down by bacteria, yields nitrates. There are various articles and videos on the internet which show how its done. Basically, you collect your urine and pour it into a pile of straw and let it sit for a couple months. To make the potassium nitrate, you make potassium hydroxide from adding wood ashes to water and filtering off the solution. Add that solution to the straw/urine and collect the liquid. By crystallizing and redissolving the potassium nitrate, you can get it to a purity that will be useable. It may sound a bit unusual and time consuming, but it actually works.

Edited May 2, 2016 by MadMat

[abdelrahmanamr]

Don't think I have this much time

[OldMarine]

Okay, tested lift and burst from both shells I mentioned earlier.

Results: Burst from both were perchlorate based powder coated on chopped rice hulls. The Excalibur brand seems to have BP for lift but that is also coated on what appears to be broken rice hulls.

Probably useless info but I enjoyed the heck outta finding it!

[lloyd]

I hate to keep pushing the same button, Patrick, but did you test for nitrates in that "perchlorate-based" burst powder?

 

The fact that it has perc in it could mean it's a purely-perchlorate-based mixture, or it could mean it's BP with a 'booster' added.

 

I've seen them both ways.

 

Yeah... Rice hulls sort of mess up your 'collection' activities.

 

LLoyd

[OldMarine]

I don't have a method of testing for nitrates. I only had methylene blue because we use it for a couple of water tests. Is there a simple test for nitrates?

[abdelrahmanamr]

Of course ... You can add NaOH or basically any base, it will release NH3, it has a very distinct odor

[OldMarine]

Of course ... You can add NaOH or basically any base, it will release NH3, it has a very distinct odor

 

Thanks, I have lye on the truck.

[WSM]

Everyone seems to be missing the point.

1. he wants to make a small rocket
2. he has consumer type fireworks with unknown types of powder
3. there is concern the powder is too powerful for a rocket

The simple answer appears to be to add powdered charcoal to the powder he has and experiment with the rockets to see how they perform.

If they're too slow, add more hot powder.

If they CATO, add more charcoal powder.

 

It's probably advisable to moisten the consumer powder slightly, add the charcoal, mix thoroughly and dry it before use.

It's safer if one can determine what is in those consumer fireworks powders before mixing, to avoid incompatibilities.

 

For safety:

1. work with as small a quantity as possible
2. work in a safe place where an accidental ignition won't cause harm
3. keep personal protective equipment on and don't take unnecessary risks
4. test the rockets in an area where they won't start a fire or get you in trouble (use remote ignition, if possible)

Let us know how it goes.

 

WSM

Edited May 2, 2016 by WSM

[Mumbles]

Of course ... You can add NaOH or basically any base, it will release NH3, it has a very distinct odor

 

 

Thanks, I have lye on the truck.

 

 

I wouldn't waste your time OldMarine. That only works if it's ammonium nitrate. It won't do anything really with potassium nitrate on its own. The brown ring test is probably the most home-accessible spot test. If you happen to have diphenylamine around, it can be used to test for nitrate as well.

[schroedinger]

Oldmarine for the ring test mentioned by by mumbles, you dissolce some iron sulfate and sample in diluted sulfuric acid and then let concentrated sulfuric acid run down the side of the test tube, under the solution. If you don't have iron sulfate just add some iron particles, and conc sulfuric acid and dilute with water and sample first.

[abdelrahmanamr]

I can't really understand the difference between BP and flash powder, they seem to have the same chemical composition, mainly an oxidizer and a fuel

[lloyd]

(Yeah... I'm quitting smoking.... yeah.... I'm going to keep my mouth shut... UNNNGHHH!)