Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

About the chinese "Time rain" composition


  • Please log in to reply
37 replies to this topic

#21 lloyd

lloyd

    Firebreather

  • Donator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,170 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 June 2016 - 12:54 PM

Research on Pyro-gear (UK) has lead to that same conclusion.

 

Lloyd


"Pyro for Fun and Profit for More Than Fifty Years"


#22 Mixer

Mixer

    Pyromaniac

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 61 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 June 2016 - 01:22 PM

The Pyro-gear formula utilises PVB and N/C though and it would be useful to find a good working formula which only requires a Dextrin binder.



#23 lloyd

lloyd

    Firebreather

  • Donator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,170 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 June 2016 - 01:54 PM

I'm not in a position to say, but I understand that some progress has been made to simplify those formulae.

 

LLoyd


"Pyro for Fun and Profit for More Than Fifty Years"


#24 Mia

Mia

    Pyromaniac

  • Donator
  • PipPipPip
  • 161 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 June 2016 - 11:41 AM

As the owner of Pyro-Gear I can say that we have cracked it, however the formulation now lays with two companies for

Evaluation 

, it is highly unlikely the formulae will be open to a public forum.

 

However keep your research going you may just get there.    


Edited by Mia, 28 June 2016 - 11:47 AM.


#25 RichardH08

RichardH08

    Playing with fire

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 14 posts

Posted 29 June 2016 - 03:10 AM

As co-discoverer of our formulation, I feel I ought to add a few comments.

 

I find it fascinating to see that others are beginning to realize, as we did some time ago, that neither heavy metals nor nitrocellulose are necessary. It seems clear that this has been known in China for many years, but the information that emerged – largely in the form of automatically translated patent applications – has been hard to understand; the more so as I suspect that the documents were written to be deliberately vague, if not misleading.

 

Our starting point was different, so it probably isn’t too surprising that our findings differ in a number of respects from what is being discussed in this thread. However, I’m absolutely certain that there is more than one way of getting to a workable composition.

 

We believe that our solution is particularly effective, which is why we decided to submit it for independent evaluation before taking matters any further. Realistically, we have to accept that this process will take some time to be completed.



#26 Adrenaline

Adrenaline

    Playing with fire

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 38 posts

Posted 02 January 2017 - 04:23 PM

Here`s some more time rain from new year`s eve.

TR +    1. Phiko Blue 2. Ruby Red 3. Emerald Green 4. Red strobe

 

http://pyrobin.com/files/TR%20cake.mp4



#27 MasterBlaster

MasterBlaster

    Playing with fire

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 23 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 January 2017 - 10:19 PM

This is awesome! I've been wanting to try making some dragon eggs but bismuth is a little out of my price range right now. I'm definitely going to have to give this a try



#28 OldMarine

OldMarine

    Firebreather

  • Donator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,594 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lebanon Tn
  • Interests:Interests? Everything interesting!

Posted 10 January 2017 - 10:24 PM

Here`s some more time rain from new year`s eve.

TR +    1. Phiko Blue 2. Ruby Red 3. Emerald Green 4. Red strobe

 

http://pyrobin.com/files/TR%20cake.mp4

Please turn your phone sideways next time. Great stars but the video camera on your phone was meant to be widescreen.


Come on! Name one other hobby in which you cheer as your money and hard work go up in smoke!

#29 ExplosiveCoek

ExplosiveCoek

    Pyrotechnician

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 334 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 January 2017 - 03:31 PM

Could you elaborate a bit on how they were made?


  • Ubehage likes this

#30 Adrenaline

Adrenaline

    Playing with fire

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 38 posts

Posted 14 January 2017 - 10:14 AM

Please turn your phone sideways next time. Great stars but the video camera on your phone was meant to be widescreen.

 

I didn't record the video myself, but I'll pass on the message.

 

Could you elaborate a bit on how they were made?

Are you referring to the time rain stars or the cake itself?

 

The microstars were 70% CuO 20% MgAl 10% Ti. Bound with NC-laquer. Wet the dry mixture with nc laquer and acetone until you can easily roll it out into a thin pancake of 1 mm thickness.

Then push the pancake through an 8 mesh sieve. Let the micro stars dry. Now you have to prime them. I use fence post prime with 7% red gum and isopropylic alcohol as a solvent. Spray the granules with

alcohol until they`re evenly wet and add prime. You can let them dry and then try lighting a few microstars with a lighter. If they only sizzle slightly and turn black then you haven't added enough prime.

Wet them again and repeat the process until you can light them easily with a lighter.

Ned Gorski published a great video about making micro stars:

Now you need to prepare your matrix star comp. You can use any composition you like. In my experience slow burning charcoal streamers give the best results.

The stars in the video were made with Hardt dragon's egg matrix.

Mix your matrix composition with your micro stars 3:1 by weight.

Wet the mixture with water und pump/cut stars. I used a 10 mm star plate for the stars in the video.

That's it.

 

Each shot  in the video was one 10 mm star + 4 small coloured stars. Shot from 1/2 " paper tubes.

Attached File  1.jpg   116.33KB   0 downloads

Attached File  2.png   1.17MB   0 downloads

Attached File  3.png   597.07KB   0 downloads

Unfortunately only the first three rows of the cake were recorded.


Edited by Adrenaline, 14 January 2017 - 10:28 AM.


#31 ExplosiveCoek

ExplosiveCoek

    Pyrotechnician

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 334 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 15 January 2017 - 12:42 PM

Yeah, the stars itself indeed. I do like the combined effects of this cake.

 

Interesting that you can make DE without any lead or bismuth.. Is this a new development of some sorts? It sounds like a fast and easy method to make these stars.



#32 Adrenaline

Adrenaline

    Playing with fire

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 38 posts

Posted 15 January 2017 - 01:37 PM

Well, I don't know who came up with this composition but the Chinese have apparently been using it for some time now.

However TR doesn't compare well with normal bismuth/lead oxide DE since it's not nearly as loud.



#33 Mumbles

Mumbles

    Grandmaster

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,860 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Above You

Posted 15 January 2017 - 03:12 PM

Are you sure they're actually using an all CuO based mixture, or is that off of a data sheet?  I'm just checking, as data sheets aren't always entirely accurate.  

 

I am with you though on the loudness.  I made similar compositions to the above mix before it became widely publicized, but never gave it much serious consideration due to the volume.  The 50:50 mix of bismuth oxide and copper oxide is good.  I wonder how far you could push that toward copper oxide heavy while retaining a sufficient volume.  Bismuth is not exactly cheap.  


Just so you guys quit asking, here is the link to the old forum. http://www.xsorbit2....forum/index.cgi

The sky is my canvas, and I have 2,113 pounds of powdered paint in the workshop.

#34 Adrenaline

Adrenaline

    Playing with fire

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 38 posts

Posted 15 January 2017 - 03:56 PM

It's of a data sheet. Seeing that the data sheet itself lists a variety of composition as "Time Rain" it is of course possible that they left out some factors.

In any case the data sheet doesn't specify mesh size of the MgAl, binder, size of the micro stars. I worked out a usable composition based on the data sheet by trial and error.

But I suspect that other mixtures might lead to the same or better results.

 

If you check the data sheet (http://pyrobin.com/f...ompositions.pdf) you'll see that they listed TR sometimes with 60% Cuo 20% MgAl 20% Ti. Sometimes

It's 70% 20% 10%. There is even mixtures that apart from CuO and MgAl contain KNO3 sulfur and charcoal. (See page 32) Maybe the KNO3 sulfur and charcoal represent the matrix mixture?

 

In my experience the loudness of the TR microstars dependens on their size. However as opposed to bismuth type mixtures, making larger microstars actually decreased their loudness.

I once cut 5 mm cubes and they didn't crackle at all. They just gave a little pop when ignited.

If you keep the size fairly small they do make a decent crackling sound though.



#35 RichardH08

RichardH08

    Playing with fire

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 14 posts

Posted 16 January 2017 - 04:59 AM

This is a fascinating topic! Your work runs parallel to the research my colleague Ken and I have been doing over the last six months or so, and backs up many of our findings.

 

I don’t want to say too much just now, as we have recently submitted an article to AFN and – provided it is accepted for publication – we would prefer the details of our work to appear there first.

 

However, your comments about the prime sound familiar. From your description, it sounds like you use rather less NC than is present in more conventional crackle compositions. That might well be the reason that a somewhat more aggressive prime is needed. We use even less (grin) and find that the right amount and type of prime is crucial to success.

 

Also, it is true that they could be louder. Have you considered including a little aluminum in the mix?



#36 Adrenaline

Adrenaline

    Playing with fire

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 38 posts

Posted 19 January 2017 - 02:05 PM

Yes I don't use much NC. Thank you for your input! 

I have never tried adding aluminium. Are you talking about dark aluminium for flash powder?

 

Here's a video of a 2" inch time rain cylinder shell I built (unfortunately again no widescreen) :

 

http://pyrobin.com/f...ch TR shell.mp4



#37 calebkessinger

calebkessinger

    Pyrotechnician

  • Donator - HE
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 468 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Missouri
  • Interests:Making tools, Cannons, Rockets

Posted 19 January 2017 - 05:20 PM

I like it. 

That's a pretty cool shell!


www.woodysrocks.com 
Pyro tools made by a pyro.
Light it up!
https://www.youtube....LBbbcufSqUn48bA

#38 RichardH08

RichardH08

    Playing with fire

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 14 posts

Posted 20 January 2017 - 03:46 AM

Yes I don't use much NC. Thank you for your input! 

I have never tried adding aluminium. Are you talking about dark aluminium for flash powder?

 

Here's a video of a 2" inch time rain cylinder shell I built (unfortunately again no widescreen) :

 

http://pyrobin.com/f...ch TR shell.mp4

Nice shell!

In answer to your question, we find that any kind of flake - and especially dark - Al is too reactive and kills the crackle effect. A fine atomized Al seems to be more effective.


  • Ubehage likes this




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users