Sufur free bp?

[Sparx88]

Sometimes you just have to have a little faith and trust those who know and go with proven methods. Experiment all you want, chances are it's already been done and if were any good it would already be normally used.

[pyrohacker]

It is absolutely not a sulfur substitute. That is something you're inventing on your own, or gleaning from poor resources. Sulfur is a fuel. Iron oxide is not. I'm not sure what more there is to say than that.

 

I suspect your issues with more conventional formulas is more indicative of your materials or process.

Excuse me but can't get sulfur so I added Iron Oxide to my formula. And yes, there is an existing formula using Iron Oxide to make fuel for rockets, just take a look at Skylighter web site and you'll see for your self.

http://www.skylighter.com/sugar-rocket-kit-4-oz.html

http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to-make/sugar-rockets.asp

[pyrohacker]

Sometimes you just have to have a little faith and trust those who know and go with proven methods. Experiment all you want, chances are it's already been done and if were any good it would already be normally used

Thank you!

[Mumbles]

From http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to-make/sugar-rockets.asp

• Potassium nitrate is the oxidizer
• Sorbitol, a sugar found in fruits, is the fuel
• Red iron oxide is a catalyst that enhances burn rate and increases the fuel's thrust

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalysis

 

And Sparx isn't agreeing with you.

[pyrohacker]

Has anybody made some bp containing just Potassium Nitrate and Charcoal on its main mix to lift shells? If so please post your formula and explain the methods and technics used and the results of it.

[NeighborJ]

Pyrohacker, just as most any pyrotechnic composition can be used to make a rocket, given a long enough spindle and properly sized nozzle, so can most any comp be adapted for shell lifting. On slow burning comps, it is often a matter of fitting the shell tighter to provide enough confinement to provide the desired burn speed and the combination of a proper length morter tube.

I don't know that there is going to be many who have done this because it is easier to make standard BP and use standard fitting shells in standard length tubes. This way no mater what site you launch from or who's tube you use, it will have a standard, predictable SAFE lift height.

[pyrohacker]

Pyrohacker, just as most any pyrotechnic composition can be used to make a rocket, given a long enough spindle and properly sized nozzle, so can most any comp be adapted for shell lifting. On slow burning comps, it is often a matter of fitting the shell tighter to provide enough confinement to provide the desired burn speed and the combination of a proper length morter tube.

I don't know that there is going to be many who have done this because it is easier to make standard BP and use standard fitting shells in standard length tubes. This way no mater what site you launch from or who's tube you use, it will have a standard, predictable SAFE lift height.

That's exactly what I made. Fitting the shell enough to take advantage of the whole gas produced. I invented a way to accomplish this without making the shell completely wide, just the end of it by adding some cardboard ring around it to fit tight. But I still got some trouble lifting it high in the air on sizes like 2". I think is the bottom cardboard disk pressure; if a hold it hard it doesn't lift, if I hold is light it just lift an fall off immediately out of the tube. Don't know what to do. I made a test with a very small shell and mortar about 1/2" in size and it flew very high in the sky. Lately I've been thinking that must leave some more room in the lifting charge chamber so the bp granules can burn much freely and completely enough to make a good blast.

[Mumbles]

You'd be better off putting the cardboard ring above the lift charge somewhere. This is used in some lifting systems in Malta for instance. The idea being you have something to seal the bore of the mortar allowing the lift to burn in a somewhat sealed environment which allows the gases to generate a higher pressure. BP, like most pyrotechnic compositions burns faster under pressure.

[OldMarine]

Would making the low power lift into a maroon help or hinder?

[NeighborJ]

Generally if a gap is left between the shell and the lift powder energy is lost. The lift powder needs to be in contact with the shell so it can build pressure quickly, which will also increase the rate of BP consum and fuel the reaction.

What sized BP grains are you using? If the grains are too small,this can limit the amount of powder available to the reaction while the shell is in the mortar. Increasing the grain size can provide extra pathways for fire to propogate thru the lift and make more surface area available to the reaction, up to a point which the energy is wased out the end of the gun.

Assuming you are using a highly reactive charcoal, milling the bp, granulating it to a useable size, proper fitting shells, and maybe a longer mortar. I cannot see a reason why sulferless powder couldn't be made to work as lift. Trying to make lift without any one of these criteria will undoubtedly end as a failure, with or without sulfer.

[pyrohacker]

Generally if a gap is left between the shell and the lift powder energy is lost. The lift powder needs to be in contact with the shell so it can build pressure quickly, which will also increase the rate of BP consum and fuel the reaction.

What sized BP grains are you using? If the grains are too small,this can limit the amount of powder available to the reaction while the shell is in the mortar. Increasing the grain size can provide extra pathways for fire to propogate thru the lift and make more surface area available to the reaction, up to a point which the energy is wased out the end of the gun.

Assuming you are using a highly reactive charcoal, milling the bp, granulating it to a useable size, proper fitting shells, and maybe a longer mortar. I cannot see a reason why sulferless powder couldn't be made to work as lift. Trying to make lift without any one of these criteria will undoubtedly end as a failure, with or without sulfer.

My BP granules are #16 mesh.

[pyrohacker]

You'd be better off putting the cardboard ring above the lift charge somewhere. This is used in some lifting systems in Malta for instance. The idea being you have something to seal the bore of the mortar allowing the lift to burn in a somewhat sealed environment which allows the gases to generate a higher pressure. BP, like most pyrotechnic compositions burns faster under pressure.

I got this little aluminum mortar tube for tests and already made a few test with it and a canister shell containing the cardboard ring on it, but with the only difference that I covered the mortar opening with a piece of Masking tape to seal it. Then it flew higher in the air as you just stated. I know my bp is slower and thats the only reason for my whole problem. I just need to speedup the burning without having sulfur in it. So I then thought of making more room for the lifting charge so could be a solution to let the bp granules to burn evenly once and generate lots of gases.

[NeighborJ]

I suspect you will have better luck with a coarse BP grain, #8 mesh or even coarser.

The other idea mumbles had is certainly a valid way to increase pressure and burn rate. Another thing which will likely work well in this circumstance is to flip the shell upside down in the mortar tube and place wadding under it. The match can be linked to your time fuse then to the lift. The wadding will work as a piston to push the already lit shell skyward. Most large shells are fused in this manner and it can be easily adapted to smaller shells.

[Mumbles]

I think the mesh size is fine. I generally used a 2Fg sized grain(-16+30) to lift most things 2" and under.

 

One other thing that is common in cakes and the like is a wad of paper or a disk above the shell. Generally it's less about giving the BP room to burn, and more about sealing the bore and increasing chamber pressure.

 

As I'm sure you know, sulfurless BP is not ideal for this. It burns slower and produces less gases than traditional BP. Some people have added sugar in the place of sulfur, but I'm not sure how well that works and likely results in more hygroscopic properties.

[pyrohacker]

I suspect you will have better luck with a coarse BP grain, #8 mesh or even coarser.

The other idea mumbles had is certainly a valid way to increase pressure and burn rate. Another thing which will likely work well in this circumstance is to flip the shell upside down in the mortar tube and place wadding under it. The match can be linked to your time fuse then to the lift. The wadding will work as a piston to push the already lit shell skyward. Most large shells are fused in this manner and it can be easily adapted to smaller shells.

I'm just working with small shells 2" or less by now just not to waste off materials. Then when it's set I'll make bigger ones making sure everything is working perfect.

[pyrohacker]

I think the mesh size is fine. I generally used a 2Fg sized grain(-16+30) to lift most things 2" and under.

 

One other thing that is common in cakes and the like is a wad of paper or a disk above the shell. Generally it's less about giving the BP room to burn, and more about sealing the bore and increasing chamber pressure.

 

As I'm sure you know, sulfurless BP is not ideal for this. It burns slower and produces less gases than traditional BP. Some people have added sugar in the place of sulfur, but I'm not sure how well that works and likely results in more hygroscopic properties.

I've read that for smaller shells the grain size should be between 10-18 mesh or something like that. Next time I'll try to make a bigger size batch like a 10-12 mesh size.

[FlaMtnBkr]

What country do you live in that sulfur is illegal?

 

Are you using a ball mill? What kind of charcoal?

 

10% iron oxide is ridiculous. Might as well add 10% clay. Try 0.5%-1%

 

If you aren't ball milling and using a hot charcoal it won't matter what you do with the missing sulfur as it wouldn't be fast even if you did have sulfur.

 

But I can't imagine a country making sulfur illegal. Nevermind...I'll just leave it at that.

[coogan1997]

So sulfur is illegal?

 

Yet kno3 is not and neither is the manufacture of aerial shells? huh

 

Oh! And you are by all intents and purposes STILL making black powder, which is supposedly illegal?

Edited January 25, 2017 by coogan1997

[pyrohacker]

So sulfur is illegal?

 

Yet kno3 is not and neither is the manufacture of aerial shells? huh

 

Oh! And you are by all intents and purposes STILL making black powder, which is supposedly illegal?

Many of you make bp without any ATF or Explosives license, just take a look in youtube. So who are you to judge me?

[pyrohacker]

What country do you live in that sulfur is illegal?

 

Are you using a ball mill? What kind of charcoal?

 

10% iron oxide is ridiculous. Might as well add 10% clay. Try 0.5%-1%

 

If you aren't ball milling and using a hot charcoal it won't matter what you do with the missing sulfur as it wouldn't be fast even if you did have sulfur.

 

But I can't imagine a country making sulfur illegal. Nevermind...I'll just leave it at that.

It might be ridiculous to you but it worked for me. I'm the one who made the tests.

[FlaMtnBkr]

So you're testing bad BP against bad BP? That's not a very good 'test'. People can only try to help and if someone doesn't want to listen or answer the questions that are asked, then so be it.

 

Good luck with your charcoal microstars.

[coogan1997]

Many of you make bp without any ATF or Explosives license, just take a look in youtube. So who are you to judge me?

 

No, I'm not judging you at all. Quite the contrary, we are all trying to help you and keep you safe. Besides I'm simply responding your own statement and I quote....

 

 

pyrohacker, on 28 Nov 2016 - 10:56 PM, said:

Where do you live that you can buy nitrates but not sulfur? Most countries I've visited have it in the drug stores. Strange.

"Yeap but not in here man. It is forbidden unless you got a license for explosives or else, precisely because it's used mainly to make BP. The law is the law."

Edited January 26, 2017 by coogan1997

[pyrohacker]

I've read that for smaller shells the grain size should be between 10-18 mesh or something like that. Next time I'll try to make a bigger size batch like a 10-12 mesh size.

I tried #16 mesh grain size for tiny shells and it works good but not so good for 2" shells. Next time I'm gonna try #10 mesh grain size for my 2" shells to see if it works.

Edited March 2, 2017 by pyrohacker

[Mumbles]

If 16 mesh doesn't work well, why are you going larger?

[lloyd]

Mumb...

By "tiny shells", I think he means shells even smaller than 2", and that he wants to increase the grain size for shells larger than what he was making before.

 

Maybe not, but it 'read' that way to me.

 

Lloyd