rogeryermaw Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I'll take it all, the new resin/hex system is eating up all my chems! (Nothing made yet, just making the resin/hex syrup, the comets and crossettes come this winter at another location) do tell...where can i find information on this system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 do tell...where can i find information on this system? Mostly on Fireworking.com. Purchased from Jim Widmann widpyro@charter.net for $5.00 a pound, 5# minimum. From Bill Ofca: My Notes on Phenolic Resin Use By Bill Ofca As a fuel: Phenol Resin can be used as a 1:1 substitute for red gum in any formula. The benefit is that it eliminates the red tip fringe to the flame envelope that red gum produces. Therefore it is said it is cleaner burning. I’ve also noticed less ash residue after the combustion of a comp is complete. Colors seem to be cleaner or more clear. As a binder: When used as a binder, the “magic” number is 6%. This is the amount that yields rock hard stars or comets when dry. When using as a substitute for red gum fuel and as a binder, and if the amount of red gum in a comp is less than 6%, then add more phenol resin until it is at 6%. For example, if a comp calls for 4% red gum, do not add 4% plus 6% of phenol resin binding (10% total). Only use 6% and it will work well as a fuel and binder. Solvents for Phenol Resin: Solvents that have been mentioned by various experimenters are denatured alcohol or ethyl alcohol (best type of alcohol). Ethylene Glycol has also been used by some. I haven’t tried that one. More recently acetone has been mentioned, but I haven’t tried that yet either. Alcohol works quite well as the most inexpensive of the solvents. Acetone may dry too fast while alcohol gives you adequate working time. For Primer Powders: Certain comps do not do well with a water binder. This is also true for applying a primer. For example, hygroscopic chemicals like strontium nitrate or sodium nitrate may never dry if bound with a water-starch binding system. Likewise, wetting the stars with water to apply a primer that has a dextrin starch binder will likely ruin the stars. In these cases, the use of phenol resin powder binding will work great. Alcohol is used as the wetting solvent that will not affect the hygroscopic chemicals. I have dissolved 10% phenol resin in alcohol using a blender to get it all dissolved, and used it in a spray bottle for wetting stars before dropping them in a bowl of primer powder then shaking and swirling the bowl. It works quite well. The other method is to add 6% phenol resin to the prime powder and mix thoroughly. Then wet the stars with plain alcohol and drop them into a bowl of dry primer powder shaking and swirling. This method is not quite as effective as using the previous method of dissolving the resin in alcohol first. Combining both methods will work well also. Burn Speed Rate: In many comp uses, the addition of phenol resin will increase the burn rate of the comp. Sometimes it will not affect the burn rate. The increasing burn speed is especially true with ammonium perchlorate as the oxidizer. However, if the resin is added to ammonium perchlorate strobe compositions, it will kill the strobe effect. It is okay as a primer coating for strobe, but not as a fuel within the strobe comp. Of course, the primer for AP strobe must not contain any nitrates or it will form hygroscopic ammonium nitrate, wetting the star from humidity in the air. As a Barrier Coating: One interesting discovery that I made is that phenol resin as a fuel and binder dissolved with alcohol will actually coat the individual particles of chemicals. This is similar to the action of NC lacquer used in binding some comps, or as in the effects of parlon for screen cutting stars. It is not good for coating magnesium and shouldn’t even be tried for that purpose. However, I did make a yellow star once using sodium nitrate and bound it with phenol resin as well as phenol resin dissolved in alcohol for wetting. The stars dried hard and I could see under a microscope that particles of chemicals were coated with the resin. These stars were made in the dry air of winter and left in an open container over the next humid summer, and they stayed dry and burned well. Ordinarily the hygroscopic nature of sodium nitrate would have absorbed water out of the humid summer air and turned the stars to mush. This is what is meant by “deliquescent”. Using phenol resin coated the oxidizer, blocking exposure to the humidity. Understand that when using hygroscopic chemicals like sodium nitrate or strontium nitrate, they need to be first dried (dehydrated) in a warm place like an oven set on low or warm or a drying box. I am talking here about only the oxidizer, not a mixed comp. This drives out any moisture before using the chemical. Effects on Glitter Stars or Comets: The only detrimental effect on glitter has been mentioned by others in a long thread on the Passfire forum a year or so ago. Some have reported that it shortens the length on a glitter tail or it shortens the hang time on charcoal streamers. I personally have not observed this, but have no reason to believe it is not valid. In any event, the effect is difficult to observe, especially by an untrained eye looking to evaluate that effect. It may therefore be inconsequential and nothing to worry about. General Use: I am now using phenol resin as a binder and/or fuel in all my star comps except for strobe stars that use ammonium perchlorate or in charcoal streamer type stars where I want a long tail hang time and need water to dissolve some of the potassium nitrate. Of course, it has no place in crackling microstars either. The simple reason I am using phenol resin is it works great, does not distort or alter colors, burns clean, and dries faster than water bound stars. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaMtnBkr Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) It's at fireworking and maybe passfire. Instead of just phenolic and alcohol o dissolve, you add hexamine and heat which causes it to kickoff and cure. Ethylene glycol can also be used to harden the phenolic but I'm not sure if it cures it. It also depends on the type of phenolic and whether there are excess something (phenol maybe?) but the stuff Jim W sells works for this. It's been a while since I've researched this and tried it so I don't remember exactly what is happening but that is the jist of it. And fireworking definitely has info on it but passfire has some info from a few years ago that I believe inspired Jim W to import it. Edit: Dave beat me to it. Edited October 10, 2014 by FlaMtnBkr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 No need to use heat, it cures overnight at room temp as well with the Hex. Rock hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcherryxoxo Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 That is very nice of Ned/Bill to let you copy/paste that over here to APC. Maybe ill let my sub lapse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Don't quote me on this, but I believe the ethylene glycol idea was brought up by Tom Schroeder on Passfire a while ago. The idea being that under pressure, the ethylene glycol will dissolve or help the resin to bind together and act as a plasticizer. It'd be a way to press compositions dry (mostly). I don't recall other benefits, but hopefully someone with time might be able to find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogeryermaw Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 thank you dag. i'll be joining fireworking next year. right now i'm saving every penny i can for one of jim's wasp machines. the use of dissolved resin for rolling primes is very intriguing for me as wetting rolled stars with alcohol or acetone to prime doesn't seem to leave a decent coating unless applied several times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddewees Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) You can't afford to join because you're saving for a wasp? That has to be the most bizarre statement I've ever seen... Edited October 10, 2014 by ddewees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogeryermaw Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 that just happens to be higher on my priority list at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 That is very nice of Ned/Bill to let you copy/paste that over here to APC. Maybe ill let my sub lapse Not his call, its a public statement, Bill gave the OK. Do you rub everyone like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcherryxoxo Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Not everyone, no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Not everyone, no I don't suppose your real name is Eric is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcherryxoxo Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 That is more of a compliment than you intend, Eric is a hero of mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Good to know, thanks for owning up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddewees Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Amazing how you guys persistently soil BB's auction threads... I think the two of you should pony up more merchandise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) Good point, sorry: What are the current bids, I lost this one? 1# TPA: 2# TPA: 2# Ti: 1# bismuth: 10# ammonium nitrate: 5# KClO425g HCB2# Hexamine Edited October 10, 2014 by dagabu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 $35 + shipping on the 2# lot of TPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogeryermaw Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 i think i had $20 on the titanium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I will scour all of them tonight after the bidding is done but I lost this one somewhere along the line... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurritoBandito Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Nater: 35 TPA (2#)Eekamouse: 10 TPA (1#)Eekamouse: 25 NH4NO3Jake bake: 40 bismuth trioxideRogeryermaw: 20 titaniumDagabu: 10 hexamineAlpinecb: 30 KClO4Shadowcat1969: 15 HCB x4 Wow this thread really blew up today while I was at work. Hopefully I didn't miss anyone. Thanks guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaMtnBkr Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) That HCB is pretty much unobtanium. Not many chances to get it. While you won't be able to use it for everything, you can see how it works and experiment with other chlorine donors to try and get something else or a combination to equal the HCB. Great if you like to experiment and is the same thing that was being sold on another website for $25 and of course is going to help BB. Don't forget guys, this isn't about buying chemicals or getting a great deal. It's about helping someone that had a bad accident and could use some help. So if you are on the fence get bidding! We are in the final stretch and this is the last chance to get silly to help someone out! FYI, that TPA is also used in a 'non-toxic' military smoke that makes lots of white smoke. I will be happy to share the formula. If anyone is interested I can bump the 2# up to 3# if anyone wants more or bid it up some? If anyone objects just say so or will keep it the same if no more bids. Just trying to get some more action going on and more money for BB. Not trying to complicate things or upset anyone. Edited October 10, 2014 by FlaMtnBkr 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaMtnBkr Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 I also found in my notes that phenolic and propylene glycol is referred to as plastisol. 6-8% phenolic is used with 2% propylene glycol and acts like a plasticizer to bind the composition. I had a few pages of info on phenolic and it's uses as well as different types and their traits but haven't found it yet. There was a lot of good info so I will keep looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 $45 for 3 lbs of TPA then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddewees Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 $21 titanium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobosan Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 (edited) So there are two separate lots of TPA? 1# and 3#? edit - If so, I'll bid $15 on the 1# lot. Edited October 11, 2014 by Bobosan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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